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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 21:39

After Grenfell Tower Fire, U.K. Asks: Has Deregulation Gone Too Far?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/28/world/europe/uk-grenfell-tower-fire-deregulation.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Feurope&action=click&contentCollection=europe&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=23&pgtype=sectionfront

The Conservatives have been fond of promoting what they called a “bonfire of regulations” in every aspect of government, to bolster private and individual responsibility and promote economic growth and productivity.

It was an argument made with particular force in the debate over Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union, or Brexit,
which advocates said would
free the country from annoying European “red tape.”

But as Jonathan Freedland, a Guardian columnist, said acidly:
“They got their bonfire.”

What the Conservatives call red tape,
argued George Monbiot,
“often consists of essential public protections that defend our lives.”

And the freedom promoted by deregulators, he said, often
“means the freedom of the rich to exploit the poor, of corporations to exploit their workers, landlords to exploit their tenants and industry of all kinds to use the planet as its dustbin.”

Tory MP Tom Tugendhat:
“It’s the state as provider and the state as guarantor
And while stepping away from the state as provider,
we’ve moved too far away from state as guarantor.”

Sostenueto · 30/06/2017 21:43

Gosh! I must be thick. Someone on newswatch, just turned TV over so don't know who he is was talking about brexit and said we are part of a continent. Funny. I thought we were an island?Confused

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 21:46

Head of Kensington council and the deputy have resigned and the head of the managing company in charge if Grenfell. Sounds all a bit suspicious to me.

Yes because the government pushed Paget-Brown over the council meeting fiasco, and this was effectively bringing the Conservative Party and the government into disrepute by extension.

Nowt suspicious there. Just incompetence (though you might argue that incompetence was criminal level).

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Sostenueto · 30/06/2017 21:52

I'm still of a mind that there is more than meets the eye Red. I still would want to see everyone's paperwork regarding money spent on refurb including builders, contractors and sub contractors. Yes you have good point about government and let's hope there's no bungs been done.

Sostenueto · 30/06/2017 21:55

America so love their gun laws. A doctor has just shot a person in a hospital where he used to work in. Brilliant case as to why americans should ban guns.

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 22:13

Sos, tbh the way that the council have acquitted themselves at Grenfell more sinister stuff might not even be needed.

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/grenfell-tower-sadiq-khan-demands-theresa-may-lets-commissioners-take-over-crisishit-council-a3577441.html
Grenfell Tower: Sadiq Khan demands Theresa May lets commissioners take over crisis-hit council

When someone starts to argue that the council are so incompetent that they have completely breeched public trust, you are into possible criminal levels on this alone.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/hard-brexit-table-labours-keir-10717922
'Hard Brexit is off the table': Labour's Keir Starmer vows to block Theresa May's plans
MP says his party will assure the UK does not leave the EU without a deal

So after Chukka made the party look bad by splitting it over the single market and making it appear that Labour were all about Hard Brexit, here's Keir to say its not. Except of course they are because they want to leave the single market and customs union exactly like May and all he's actually saying is they won't have Chaotic Hard Bruit like the Tories might. Its an exercise in confusion by language. And not really understanding what Brussels are saying. It really means 'shit we got caught with our pants down but lets carry on and pretend no one saw it'.

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Sostenueto · 30/06/2017 22:17

Do you think the mayor can do anything about K&C council then Red?

Sostenueto · 30/06/2017 22:20

X posted Red sorry!

VulvalHeadMistress · 30/06/2017 22:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

woman12345 · 30/06/2017 22:33

Independent headline:
Sack Grenfell Council or face civil unrest.
^Grenfell Tower fire: MPs call for Government to seize control of Kensington and Chelsea Council
The council should be stripped of its powers, Labour and survivors groups say^
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-fire-kensington-council-control-government-seize-labour-mps-nick-paget-brown-a7817516.html

^Humiliating' benefits assessments must end after disabled woman forced to ‘crawl’ up DWP stairs, says Scope
Maria Quinn told she couldn't use temporary ramp as she wasn't in a wheelchair^
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/benefits-assessment-disabled-woman-crawl-stairs-wheelchair-maria-quinn-dwp-scope-a7817301.html

Remember the early days of this thread when this type of injustice seemed a bit more unusual?

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 22:37

Both parties are totally confused, because they are a chaotic mix of ignorance, arrogance and cowardice.

The public has been promised "cake and eat it", if the UK just thumps the table hard enough.
Many politicians still believe this

No major politician so far has both the knowledge and the courage to say:

Choose your hard:
either
"Cake, but you must eat all your Brussels sprouts first"
or
" No Brussels sprouts, but no cake either"

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 22:39

sos The Mayor of London has no legal power whatsoever to take over a council:
He can only demand that the government - who have this power - do so.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 22:40

Or to be exact, only the govt can order commissioners to take over a council

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 22:41

Interesting intervention.

A former Daily Mail journalist, Mr Chapman was George Osborne's director of communications before becoming Mr Davis's chief of staff at the new department for exiting the EU.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40461496?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter
Theresa May has 'hamstrung' David Davis in Brexit talks

Theresa May has made David Davis's job more difficult by setting "red lines" for him in Brexit talks, his ex-chief of staff has told the BBC.

^James Chapman said the Brexit secretary had been "hamstrung" by the prime minister's stance on the European Court of Justice (ECJ), among other things.
He said Mrs May would not get a Brexit deal through Parliament unless she showed more "flexibility".^

Article also makes this point:
The ECJ's main role is to uphold the rules of the single market, rather than rule on criminal matters like the European Court of Human Rights.

Before also saying this:
He also revealed that cabinet ministers wanted Mrs May to do a U-turn over plans to pull the UK out of Euratom, the pan-European atomic energy regulator.

Euratom is a separate legal entity from the EU and gives Britain's nuclear industry access to technology and fissile material.

Mr Chapman said the reason for wanting to withdraw from Euratom was to prevent the free movement of nuclear scientists, which is governed by the ECJ.

"Now I would have thought the UK would like to continue welcoming nuclear scientists, who are all probably being paid six figures and are paying lots of tax," he said.

That reads to me like wanting to actively prevent the FoM of nuclear scientists OUT of the UK rather than what Chapman suggests about them coming in.

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 22:42

Dreadful story, woman , but some people would like all those claiming benefits to be forced to crawl before receiving them

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 22:46

red Leaving Euratom will cause UK scientists to leave, to find jobs

May can't prevent the braindrain by passing laws, only by providing more opportunities and better pay than other countries are offering.

Unless she intends to go one better than Trump - and build a wall around the uk to keep people IN

LurkingHusband · 30/06/2017 22:48

That reads to me like wanting to actively prevent the FoM of nuclear scientists OUT of the UK rather than what Chapman suggests about them coming in.

If they want to leave, and have the skills, there are plenty of countries that can offer citizenship.

Or are becoming the USSR ?

woman12345 · 30/06/2017 22:50

build a wall around the uk to keep people IN
actively prevent the FoM of nuclear scientists OUT of the UK

Now that really is creepy.

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 22:56

Stephen Bush @ stephenkb
All but confirms Civil Service suspicion that Downing Street had no idea what ECJ red line meant when they drew it.

In relation to the BBC area and the ECJ and Euroatom.

I don't know how they will get it through parliament. What is the Labour position onthe EACH and Euroatom?

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woman12345 · 30/06/2017 22:59

Wimbledon warns supporters against political chants and slogans amid fears of outbreak of Corbynism

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/30/wimbledon-warns-supporters-against-political-chants-slogans/

Grin
RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 23:01

Here we go from beginning of the month:
Sir Keir revealed as well that his party would refuse a key Brussels demand for the European Court of Justice to be final guarantor for EU citizens rights after Brexit, but could accept the body having an ongoing role for trade disputes.

WTF?!

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2017 23:04

That's totally perverse
And cruel
I could understand wanting the other way round

Is he just very confused ?

woman12345 · 30/06/2017 23:08

Is he just very confused
The ukips seem to have everyone still in some sort of strangle hold.Sad
Caroline Flint was talking up brexit too, on Daily Politics. Some labour MPs are acting like delegates not representatives, maybe LH's USSR allusion has more truth than I want to believe.

RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 23:10

And also:

Labour says it would “seek to retain membership of Europol and Eurojust and continue European Arrest Warrant arrangements.” This of course implies accepting the ultimate jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice though the manifesto doesn’t mention that.

But May wants to keep these too. Outside the ECJ of course. So I don't see how that assumption works.

Got the Labour Euratom position.

'retain access to Euratom' whatever the fuck that means. Especially with the 'we are choosing which bugs of the ECJ we are leaving' shit.

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RedToothBrush · 30/06/2017 23:22

So Labour.

-In ECJ for trade.
-Outside for citizens rights.
-Want Europol, Euro arrest warrant and Eurojust. But no comment on how this fits with the EACH which covers them. Surely these falls under citizens rights by their nature.
-And the 'access' to Euratom' which if subject to ECJ is also about FoM and therefore citizens rights not just trade.

It's in the land of smoking crack.

The Justice Select Committee in March said staying in the ECJ was 'a price worth paying'

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2017/mar/22/uk-must-retain-link-with-european-court-of-justice-say-mps
UK must retain link with European Court of Justice, say MPs

The justice select committee has 11 members: six Conservative, four Labour and one SNP. The chair is the influential Tory MP Bob Neill.

Launching the report, Neill said: “Protecting the UK as a top-class commercial law centre should be a major priority, given the clear impacts on the economy of failure to do so: the government should look to replicate existing provisions as closely as possible.

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