Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
howabout · 29/06/2017 13:52

Tending to agree with you on the EU engineering Brexit LH. Grin

Neatly fits with the banter Bigchoc and I were having on the other thread re the demographic timebomb. The UK doesn't have one, with or without EU immigration, but the rEU does. Not clear why the EU was ever keen to keep exporting working age population to us and yet Merkel kept insisting to DC.

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 13:53

Gareth Davies‏*@Gareth*_Davies09
In eight years of reporting local councils, I can't recall any occasion when public was barred from an entire meeting
That includes after the riots in Croydon (the hardest hit area of the country)
There were a number of occasions when part of the meetings were private (also questionable) but not the entire meeting
As this is allegedly only about disruption there is no reason why the meeting cannot be broadcast online

www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/grenfell-tower-fire-public-press-13255792
Grenfell Tower fire: Public and press BANNED from attending attending Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council Cabinet meeting about tragedy
The council is giving no explanation as to why press are banned from reporting on the important meeting

In an email to the council, getwestlondon requested attendance at the meeting and said: "We believe that:

A blanket ban on attendance is inappropriate, especially considering the nature of this incident
There is no risk to a reporter disrupting proceedings of the meeting, press simply observe and report
Our attendance and reporting of the meeting is a proportionate approach which combines the public's entitlement to know what was discussed by the council in the interests of transparency with managing any fear of disruption
It is appropriate for this meeting to be reported contemporaneously and not potentially days or weeks later, when minutes are made available on the council's website."
The NUJ has called for the ban to be lifted immediately, adding that the meeting is of the "utmost public interest"

NUJ = National Union of Journalists in case anyone is wondering.

OP posts:
Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 13:54

Thanks all for info on Belgium etcFlowers also gets hot cheesy nachos to pass round while we watch Grayling being toasted. Someone bring the drinks!

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 13:55

The common interests of the Hard Brexiteers and Hard Europeans have been talked about for a long long time. Its not new.

OP posts:
Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 14:00

Omg! Kensington and Chelsea certainly want a cover up! Anyone watch VD on BBC 1 yesterday morning? Grenfell residents certainly put them through it there! The guy who is head of Kensington council has moved Hus family in fear for their lives. Mr Bond who gas a bond numberplate on his real posh car has certainly got a lot to hide!

howabout · 29/06/2017 14:02

Red where do you place Guy V, Barnier, Macron and Merkel on the Hard European spectrum? I would put them all in the hard box which is why I am confident we will get a win win deal.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 29/06/2017 14:05

As an aside, you can email your MP urging them to support the amendment to the Queen's speech re: abortions for Northern Irish women using this example letter here, if you're so inclined:

mypledgeherchoice.org/northern-ireland-abortion-access/

Somerville · 29/06/2017 14:08

stellacreasy
(@stellacreasy)
Woah - chancellor just told house going 2 fund abortions 4 NI women in England. No detail as yet so asking for clarity.. #MyPledgeHerChoice

RedPeppers · 29/06/2017 14:10

Re the effect on the EU of the UK leaving.
If their predictions are similar as they were when they said it was the start of Frexit etc etc I think we can safely say the EU will carry on quite happily Grin

woman12345 · 29/06/2017 14:13

Can we cheer yet?
chancellor just told house going 2 fund abortions 4 NI women in England
Well done everyone! Smile

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 29/06/2017 14:16

Ha, amazing! No need to email MPs then Blush

woman12345 · 29/06/2017 14:18

Well done to all the fine campaigners, Stella Creasey and all the persisters who resisted. Smile Smile Smile

LemonSalad · 29/06/2017 14:18

I'm amazed that councils in the UK can ban the public and the press from meetings with no further explanation, that is horrendously intransparent! This would be against the law in Germany and any significant changes to those laws would also be unconstitutional. Exceptions are only made for a very limited number of cases such as debates about disciplinary matters or when the finances of individual citizens or companies are discussed.

I hope the press will slaughter them over this!

woman12345 · 29/06/2017 14:22

Presume the K&C public and press ban is yet another ECHR breach.

It is also f**ing provocative.

Are the tories after some street protests to distract from their incompetence?

howabout · 29/06/2017 14:22

Could be interpreted as the Chancellor thumbing his nose at both the DUP and SF though?

woman12345 · 29/06/2017 14:26

Institutional racism.
It is what it is.

People protest inside Kensington town hall two days after the Grenfell fire Guardian picture.

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 14:28

Can we cheer yet?
chancellor just told house going 2 fund abortions 4 NI women in England

Considering yesterday's 'we are considering removing the pay cap....oh no we're not actually' shenanigans I am holding back on the cheering for now. If I were to join the cynical posters club I might suggest that this trend to mention a possible change in policy just before a potential vote may in someway influence the support for that vote. Hmm

Until the policy is official and the ink is on the paper, I believe nothing anymore.

LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 14:29

"Commercial confidence" is the get-out-of-jail-free card for excluding public, and ignoring FOI requests.

BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 14:32

In fact until the money is provided and women are able to walk into a clinic and get an abortion without paying remain unconvinced. I was reading an article yesterday about the promised finding for 10000 student nursing places in the UK, which has mysteriously not yet made its way to universities despite the bursaries having already been removed.

LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 14:34

Fool me once ...

Somerville · 29/06/2017 14:38

There's a letter from Greening that provides more clarity. It's not just a vague mention in parliament. So I'm cautiously hopeful.
And if it indeed happens, it has taught opposition MPs how to win against this government, right? Choose issues on which they can peel off a few Tories, then the weak and wobbly government will freak out at the possibility of losing and cave and announce it as a new policy...

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 14:40

Let's cheer

Hooray ! GrinGrin

The govt have agreed to fund abortions for NI women who visit England

The funding will come from the govt equalities office
So the NHS will NOT have extra costs

This great concession was achieved, because of pressure from so many Tory MPs - the govt was worried some might vote against the Queen's Speech

BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 14:44

My fear is that they will pledge the money, everyone moves on, but the money does not actually appear. There is no date on the letter from Greening, so no pledge I have seen on when this will start. The Tories have form for this. The dates it will be implemented get pushed back and back until it's 'by the end of the parliament' and then the next parliament. In the mean time women are still paying and everyone has forgotten about it after celebrating their win, while the Tories get to pretend they give a shit.

I think this is something we should be watching very closely and pressure needs to be kept up.

LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 14:44

I'm beginning to agree with Strong and Stable government.

I presume the timing of this announcement was to take advantage of the few weeks it will take the DUP to count their lolly ?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 14:44

I expect even the U-turn queen May can't go back on these clear statements
< gulp, but they've already U-turned until the country is dizzy & confused >

Now we'll see if the DUP really meant it, when they said this was a matter for the Rnglish NHS, not NI

If the DUP put on pressure behind the scenes, May will of course prioritise saving her neck ahead of helping thousands of desperate NI women.

Swipe left for the next trending thread