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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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howabout · 29/06/2017 14:48

Bigly I am not as cynical as you about this. I don't think it was ever about money because the relative amounts must be absolutely tiny. However there is a political opportunity to do this now as LH says.

BiglyBadgers · 29/06/2017 14:50

They don't need to U-turn, they just procrastinate.

Sorry, I am being uber cynic.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/06/2017 14:52

howabout Imo a state has no right to a certain minimum size of population, if its citizens want a better life elsewhere.

People should have the right to leave for a better life, not just for money, but also fleeing governments that are hard right or too religious (some E European ones) - or for that matter govts which are too communist / Conservative / Labour / Liberal for their personal taste.

That is People Power in action
If a govt doesn't want people to leave, they should change policy to provide what their people want at home

I view countries as shops: if you don't like it, you need the freedom to go to another one
Like I have done.

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 14:52

Guy V - wants reform. Idealist in terms of being a hard European but I think would prefer to have UK involved somehow as not having them undermines EU ultimately. He spoke of reform long before others and the need for perhaps a two tier Europe (which isn't inconsistent with a soft Brexit). I don't think a hard brexit is his preferred choice
Barnier - was a UKsceptic but voted to allow us to join. Has said he does not regret that decision. His job is to get the best for the EU but I don't think that means he wants to run us over either. Not a hard liner.
Macron - as president elected by French public, the views of the French public and French interests more important than anything the UK has to say on the subject. Is pro-EU but again, sees problems with the EU and NEEDS to bring about reform for French interests and for his own political future. Failure to do so, would benefit Le Pen.
Merkel - Happy with status quo to an extent. But potentially stands to gain most from UK exit. She also needs Macron and closer EU cooperation without the US and with the UK being unreliable and distant. Can not afford to play silly games like the UK is doing.

I would say none are hard line Europeans in the sense that they think they are better off without the UK. Its more that they can see opportunities without the UK too and as such given our basket casery have to seriously start acting as if we are no longer part of the equation.

This is thing. The Brits have made it out that its only us who gets opportunities from Brexit and the EU will be worse off. That narrative is not true. That's what is starting to happen now, which will please the hard liners and might make reforms that the likes of Verhofstadt and Macron might prefer.

Juncker is perhaps the most obvious hard liner who really doesn't particular care for the UK. Him and Farage are peas in a pod.

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LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 14:59

If a govt doesn't want people to leave, they should change policy to provide what their people want at home

Is one way.

The other is to ensure your citizens can't leave. Either by the Iron Curtain (has anyone here helped someone flee an Eastern Bloc country in the 1980s ? I have.) Or by the simple expedient of making sure there is nowhere for them to go which will basically be what will happen to sole UK citizens post-Brexit.

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 15:01

I'm amazed that councils in the UK can ban the public and the press from meetings with no further explanation, that is horrendously intransparent!

Strictly speaking on the grounds they have given without further explanation they can't. I suspect there will be repercussions if they do.

"Commercial confidence" is the get-out-of-jail-free card for excluding public, and ignoring FOI requests.

Yes, but that does not mean the press must be banned for the entire meeting. Only potentially part of it.

Councillors are elected to serve the community not protect commercial interests.

As I say, it won't be without repercussions... the relationship between elected officials, the media and the courts is central here.

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RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 15:08

LH, I think the UK government want to do that. Its all about building walls at the moment.

In context of that:
Alberto Nardelli‏ @AlbertoNardelli
Important: Italy is tired of most EU states doing too little to help with migration, considers closing its ports
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/28/italy-considers-closing-its-ports-to-ships-from-libya
Italy considers closing its ports to boats carrying migrants
Government reportedly seeking EU approval of drastic changes to asylum procedures after surge in refugee arrivals

Justine Greening‏*@JustineGreening* (In capacity of Minister for Women and Equalities)
Pleased to say women from N Ireland seeking an abortion in England will no longer have to pay for the NHS treatment:
www.gov.uk/government/news/access-to-abortion-services-in-england

Jess Phillips‏*@jessphillips*

The emails from women and organisations in my inbox saying they are crying with thanks made me weep #MyPledgeHerChoice

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woman12345 · 29/06/2017 15:12

the letter:

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
woman12345 · 29/06/2017 15:13

I think this is something we should be watching very closely and pressure needs to be kept up oh yes.

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 15:16

Wayhay! I emailed my mp. Wayhay the government is funding for NI women! So pleased! Smile

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 15:23

For goodness sake why am I always behind everyone else, now I realise I didn't need to email my MP! Never mind its another skill i learned.Hmm

howabout · 29/06/2017 15:33

Every day's a schoolday Sos - only reason I muck about on MN is to keep my hand in. You should email Justine Greening to tell her she's fulfilling her education brief too Grin

RedPeppers · 29/06/2017 15:33

Actually sos i think its a very good thing you have done that. Becuase im not convinced this will happen.

Re the U turns. So many of them leaves you dizzy but leaves yoou unable to say what is actually the government positions.
I wouldnt be surprised if some peope are now convinced that the cap on pay for the civil servants has been lifted.

howabout · 29/06/2017 15:36

Not too far from my thinking on the EU players Red. I don't see any reason for any of them to want to keep us or make an example of us for leaving. The French election result helped.

Mrsmartell08 · 29/06/2017 15:37

Sorry
Wont believe it til it happens 😔

howabout · 29/06/2017 15:43

RedPepper I am pretty sure the public sector pay cap misdirections are all political manoeuvring. It is starting to cost money because of the impact on recruitment and retention and was costed in a much lower inflation environment. Also it is polling as not having support. I assume the Government will accept the Autumn findings of the independent panel and accuse Labour of having suggested completely unrealistic across the board largesse up till that point.

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 15:56

Yes! Got automated email from MP and he's a remainer! I can bombard him now with emails!

LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 16:02

LH, I think the UK government want to do that. Its all about building walls at the moment.

Worryingly, I know at least one person who voted leave who doesn't (or rather didn't) realise that ending FoM would be a 2-way street. They genuinely believed that UK citizens could still hop across to Europe and settle down and retire with not so much as a by-your-leave. Multiplying that level of ignorance (which is actually quite low on the "straight bananas" scale of bollocks) up statistically suggests there are quite a few people who never really got FoM in the first place. But then they probably thought "The Holocaust" was a bar in the next town ....

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 16:04

What time is voting starting?

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 16:10

Gareth Davies‏**@Gareth**_Davies09

UPDATE: NUJ says it is "deeply disturbed" that tonight's Kensington & Chelsea cabinet meeting will be held in private

Jo Maugham QC‏*@JolyonMaugham*
They should instruct Counsel to get over to the High Court and ask for an injunction.

Gareth Davies‏**@Gareth**_Davies09

I'm told it's not something they are planning to do

All rather interesting, that a) they can do and b) they aren't planning to.

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RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 16:17

Oliver Duggan‏*@OliDuggan*
NEW: Sir Martin Moore-Bick, judge appointed to lead #Grenfell inquiry, massively managing expectations straight out the gate... (via @PA)

Jo Maugham QC‏*@JolyonMaugham*
Is the Government trying to get this wrong? Why would it impose terms of reference without even discussing them with residents?

Jane Samuels‏*@Jane*_Samuels
Yet Sir Martin Moore-Bick confirmed on BBC that his TOR [Terms of Reference] has been given to him, as narrow from point of fire and not before. 1/2
Is it any wonder the residents want a broader inquiry as they raised huge concerns long before the fire - and the council ignored ? 2/2

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.
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Arborea · 29/06/2017 16:20

Nothing in Greening's letter mentions the travel expenses of women in NI seeking abortion in England. I know this proposal is a step forward, but it's still going to be costly for N I women to exercise their rights.

LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 16:24

Nothing in Greening's letter mentions the travel expenses of women in NI seeking abortion in England. I know this proposal is a step forward, but it's still going to be costly for N I women to exercise their rights

Of course, if you wanted to shitstir, from the UK mainland perspective, you might say why don't the DUP use one thousandth of their recent windfall to pay for the whole lot.

One way of looking at the public sector pay cap, is it's being used to fund that change.

(And for the avoidance of doubt, I think it's an affront to the idea of equality that the UK is prepared to accept different conditions for womens healthcare based on geography).

howabout · 29/06/2017 16:33

LH I don't disagree with you, but it is a devolved issue both in NI and now also in Scotland.

LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 16:37

LH I don't disagree with you, but it is a devolved issue both in NI and now also in Scotland.

I know that, but if it allows this situation, maybe it shouldn't be devolved ?

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