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Brexit

Westminstenders: The 3 Million get their first offer.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2017 18:02

The UK have finally put forward their proposals for EU citizens living in the UK. These 'bargaining chips' have been offered a 'generous deal' which is nothing of the sort.

For an in depth look at what it means this is a good summary:
Analysis: what is the UK proposing for EU citizens in the UK and EU citizens in the EU?
This is written by a leading immigration law blogger.

What they suggest, is this is probably what will happen in the event of a no deal situation and that hopefully there can be a better final deal. That does seem to be backed by the comments about EU citizens not needing to do anything now (including apply to remain under existing rules under the 85page document) although they are telling the civil service to prepare for a no deal situation. But who knows? Who can trust them?

What we should all be paying close attention to is not just the detail of this, but the language around it.

Numerous politicians have said that they will wait and see what the EU proposal is, even though it has been out for a couple of weeks. This is an effort to discredit and smear the EU.

This comes after Davis had suggested that the UK had achieved a 'victory' by getting the EU to 'agree' to put citizens rights at the time of priorities to be dealt with, even though it was also the top priority for the EU who refuse to talk about anything else until the matter is settled. Everything is being couched as a victory, even if its merely agreeing with the EU and constitutes a compromise by the UK and a row back from previous comments.

Also flying about a lot is confusion over the ECJ and the EHCR. Some of it is ignorant. Some of it is an effort to discredit and smear the ECJ to force a harder Brexit.

The EU position can be found here: EU proposals for post Brexit EU/UK citizens
It is essentially to preserve ALL current rights.

The UK position is to reduce EU citizens rights. This would also enable them to reduce UK citizens rights in the longer term, so what happens here, isn't just about EU nationals rights its also about UK nationals living in the UK.

Of course the proposals also have more significance for UK citizens living in the EU. The UK government have frequently suggested their use of bargaining chips was to help UK citizens living abroad. What has been put on the table could not be further from the truth. The government is quite happy to screw over UK citizens living in the EU. Probably because they are traitors.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block to a deal is who oversees it all. The UK want it all done purely by UK courts. This is NOT going to happen (unless we have a no deal). There is no way the EU will compromise on this, due to our dreadful track record in deportations with unlawful behaviour and lack of regard for family life. (Thanks Theresa). Systems on the table as an alternative to the ECJ are a new court system - perhaps even merely one with the same judges but with a different name to appease a ignorant British public - or arbitration which is unlikely as it tends to be for states and not businesses or individuals.

It will be interesting to see how this progresses as it should give a good idea of how much we will compromise.

Its also been pointed out that the paper on EU citizens have been the first public document on Brexit which has had any substance. If I was a cynic I might say that Davis is sitting on his arse waiting for the EU to publish their proposals before and merely copying the EU's homework and making changes to it. If that happens to really be the case, then its perhaps a good thing, as our lot really are bloody useless and have no idea what they are talking about.

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LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 12:11

What I have noticed though, is that since the UK has signed the Art50, the eu is now busy with doing what they had wanted to do all along, but couldn't because of the uk.

You know that trope about the greatest trick the devil pulled ?

It's starting to look like the EU might have been backing Leave all along. Double bubble: dump the laggards, and let them cripple their own economy. It's hard not to imagine a secret cabal sniggering away in depths of Berlin agreeing that revenge is best served cold.

Somerville · 29/06/2017 12:21

As PP's have said, the DUP bung is not dependant on power sharing being successfully negotiated. The DUP have no incentive to negotiate.

The background here is that the birthrate is not in unionists favour. Which doesn't mean a united Ireland is on the cards, because there are significant other massive hurdles - probably the biggest is that the people of the rest of Ireland probabaly won't want us - too expensive! But the DUP feel don't have that much to lose in being obstreperous bastards. They'll still get unionist votes, the way things stand.

citroenpresse · 29/06/2017 12:24

No gratitude as to the contribution EU citizens make. No reassurances that they are valued. It just stinks.

citroenpresse · 29/06/2017 12:25

I'm sure there's a cabal of those Lurking but I don't think that's the majority. Big hole in EU finances with the UK going - a net contributor.

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 12:32

Here we go....

norman smith‏*@BBCNormanS*

The #Grenfelltower residents assoc say new judge lacks criminal background to establish blame/guilt
The #grenfelltower residents say treating inquiry like "contract dispute won't answer questions"
We are not prepared to wait 30 years for criminal charges like Hillsborough - #grenfelltower residents

Victoria Derbyshire‏ @VictoriaLIVE
Grenfell Tower victims' distrust in the establishment must be understood by government when setting up inquiry says lawyer @JolyonMaugham.
Link to video clip

Adam Wagner‏ @AdamWagner1
1. I agree with @JolyonMaugham that the #grenfalltower public inquiry has a huge amount to do - early - to bring families on board
2. As someone who has acted in 3 inquiries, you have to make sure the 'victim' groups are, and feel, properly involved FROM THE START
3. Grenfall Tower Inquiry is starting in a precarious position - it is only weeks after the tragedy and still a huge amount of emotion
4. It will be very easy to make mistakes now with involvement of relatives/victims which will not be reparable later
5. It is ESSENTIAL that the family/victim group/s are given full paid for representation early, really now. So they can feed into process
6. Victim/family groups must be involved in setting of terms of reference. They can't really do this without paid lawyers
7. No doubt there will be difficulties over whether families/victims are one group or many, but those difficulties must be dealt with early
8. The point of public inquiry is to address public concern. Moore-Bick must make victims/families the heart of the inquiry or it will fail

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HashiAsLarry · 29/06/2017 12:33

howabout the reason these talks have been extended is there's little appetite for yet another set of elections in NI. If the ge hadn't happened, direct rule was looking more than possible. I doubt the appetite is there again after the ge too.

Cailleach1 · 29/06/2017 12:35

Even though the Con's are committed to leaving, it didn't stop them allegedly trying to interfere and pressure to stop the EU allowing for the smooth entry of NI in the case of a democratic vote for a United Ireland. Now why would they do that? A democratic mandate which the GFA allows for. In this theoretical scenario, NI would no longer be part of the UK and the UK would no longer be part of the EU. It would be in accordance with provisions they signed up to. It is merely being prepared if that hypothetical situation ever arose.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/28/europe-considers-clause-allow-northern-ireland-automatic-membership/

From above "Ulster’s border with Ireland - the EU’s only land border with the UK". Part of Ulster is in Ireland and part of Ulster is in NI. If the writers got this wrong. They could have just said 'Ulster's border with Ulster'.

This one below is not so hysterical. Not calling a democratic mandate 'meddling'.

www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/european-union-to-accept-united-ireland-provision-1.3065781

RedPeppers · 29/06/2017 12:42

LH ok you win on the most cynical post 😜

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 12:50

www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/rupert-murdochs-bid-to-take-complete-control-of-sky-has?utm_term=.lboy6Benk#.erVPqo3Wj
Rupert Murdoch's Bid To Take Complete Control Of Sky Has Been Delayed
Conservative ministers warned the billionaire could gain too much power to "influence the overall news agenda and their ability to influence the political process".

As a result she said was minded to order a further six month inquiry by competition regulator into whether the merger would damage news plurality in the UK. A final decision will be made in ten days' time. In response, the shadow culture secretary Tom Watson said the Tories had still given Murdoch what he wanted.

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enochroot · 29/06/2017 12:52

In 1979 I was momentarily tempted to vote Tory because I liked the idea of a woman becoming Prime Minister.
It was only a brief aberration and I didn't actually do it.

Cailleach1 · 29/06/2017 12:54

Oh, I'd say the grieving is over. Despite Katya Adler finding the one Spanish MEP saying he'd do all he could to keep the UK. Think that Farage and his 19 cohorts are MEP's. The UK are the eighth largest contributor per capita. Ireland is tenth.

inews.co.uk/explainers/charts/much-uk-pays-eu-much-get-back/

Yes, the contributions will end on exit. However, everything the UK wants access to piecemeal (and the EU) agrees, will have to be ponied up for. Schengen database is probably given on a more favourable rate to a member of EU at the mo. You also have to factor in the potential windfall to the EU if businesses have to move from the UK to an EU country. Or passporting of Euro and similar clawing back happens. This may compensate somewhat. If passporting is retained, you can bet it will have to be paid through the nose for.

OlennasWimple · 29/06/2017 13:04

Cailleach - I knew that NI politics has long been largely ignored by the mainstream media in England, but I didn't realise just how ignorant so many journalists are about the fundamentals until the last eight weeks or so. It's staggering, isn't it? Even Wikipedia is more accurate than some of this stuff

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 13:07

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-inquiry-labour-mps-judge-sir-martin-moore-bick-survivors-theresa-may-calais-a7814221.html
Grenfell Tower fire: Senior Labour MPs fear judge chosen to lead the inquiry won't have confidence of survivors

Sir Martin Moore-Bick's ruling in a housing dispute triggered warnings local authorities would be able to “engage in social cleansing of the poor”

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Peregrina · 29/06/2017 13:09

probably the biggest is that the people of the rest of Ireland probabaly won't want us - too expensive!

I'm getting cynical now, but Theresa May's bung should help here, shouldn't it?

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 13:12

Kevin Schofield‏*@PolhomeEditor*

Labour MPs will be whipped to abstain on Chuka Umunna's amendment on single market membership. Big rebellion against Jeremy Corbyn coming.

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Sheffiedl · 29/06/2017 13:13

"No gratitude as to the contribution EU citizens make. No reassurances that they are valued. It just stinks."

Agreed. It's all 'look how generous and gracious we are to not send you all home to immigration detentions centres where you can earn £1.00 for voluntary essential labour'.

The HO fails completely to take into account any real life complexities in the silly 'cases studies'.

Whenever I think of the Tory party I now feel slightly nauseous. The current flavour of Tories is bigoted, narrow minded, unintelligent, self satisfied, selfish, vain, pretentious a party led by people with no honour or shame. Honestly it's like they are from the dark side. What's wrong with them? bitter rhetorical question.

How much longer will the British public swallow their pompous, stupid garbage?

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 13:16

Someone just told me that Belgium have sent loads of UK citizens back if they haven't got jobs. Is that right?

RedPeppers · 29/06/2017 13:21

Honestly? I think the british public will accept that for a Loooong time unless it hits them so badly that they cant take it anymore.
How far it would have to go, i have no idea. But reading threads on MN about schools or the NHS shows that people are happy to be given shit and still say thanks for it.
So you have talks about it being ok to have to pay to get some education wheh its supposed to be free (and clearly schools in poorer areas will then have less opportunities). Talks about not going to the GP ''for nothing' (and play at being a doctor even though you're not)
Talks bout no magic money tree but forgetting we actually have one when we want.
I think it will have to be something really big before british people react. Too much 'Keep calm and keep going regardless of the unnecessary shit' attitude

lonelyplanetmum · 29/06/2017 13:26

Yes Sos.I don't know if Belgium do send EU citizens away if they don't have work, but all member states (including us) can do that.

We just chose not to.Thats why it's all so weird.EU migration is positive,it's only 5% of the population anyway and there a right to remove those have not found a job, and have no realistic possibility of finding one.

RedPeppers · 29/06/2017 13:26

sos no ideas but that would within the framework of the FoM. You cant saty in an eu country wo looking or having a job (and looking musty be proper looking).
France has doe that before with some people from Roumania.

For information
www.euronews.com/2016/03/11/belgium-says-jobless-europeans-not-welcome
Where it clearly states its nothing to do with the UK but a very strict application of the rules of the FoM.
Showing btw that if the UK had wanted to have tighter control on 'immigration' and benefit scroungers, they could ahve done so...

lonelyplanetmum · 29/06/2017 13:30

Article mentions Belgium here....

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/richard-bird/immigration-blame-the-uk-bb_13120104.html

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2017 13:31

Press Association‏*@PA*
#Breaking The Transport Secretary has been given two weeks to produce a report on Southern Railway, the High Court has ruled
Chris Grayling will face a judicial review on his handling of the franchise if he does not produce a report within the time limit

passes the bowl of popcorn around again

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Somerville · 29/06/2017 13:35

Sadly, but unsurprisingly:

Carl Dinnen
(@carldinnen)
BREAKING; DUP say there will be no deal to restore Stormont in time for the 4pm deadline.

LurkingHusband · 29/06/2017 13:37

Big hole in EU finances with the UK going - a net contributor.

I think there's some sort of inbuilt flaw in human thinking that means we always have to see the future as "now plus" rather than a result of many interacting processes.

Yes, in a 2D world (i.e. the one Brexiters live in) the EU will lose what the UK pays.

In a 3D world, the loss of the UK can be compensated by the potential increase in overall efficiency (as the UK is hardly setting records anywhere alight for productivity) plus all those EU-related jobs and agencies that are already starting to leak to the mainland.

Come 2019, I suspect the net effect will be a lot less than Leavers have told themselves.

Sostenueto · 29/06/2017 13:43

Thanks everyone for info and links Flowers. Gets cheesy nachos too to pass round while we watch Chris Grayling getting toasted.

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