Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

JC is not a natural leader at all. He's a good campaigner. And he has a moral compass, like many British people. It's labour's policies that people are excited about. That and subverting this alt right coup.

If the Labour manifesto was used by a Dutch, Spanish or German party, no one would bat an eyelid, it's just run of the mill European democratic socialism.

I think part two of our recovery from this embarrassing and tragic period in our country's history would be to step back from the infantilising 'personality politics'. Thinking they were voting for Teresa May or JC was a pathetic aspect to some voters' lack of knowledge about party politics. 'Personality politics' work well for extremists.

pointythings grin

Fantastic to see the young galvanised
I'd prefer politics to be boring, steady and uneventful. I'm not sure I even want the young to be too attached to what's happening, there's way more other stuff they could and should be up to.

Above all else, I'd like a return to politics being something one could dip in and out of, while the other machinery of society is equitable, accountable, safe and compassionate.

The adoration of Obama (and other US politicians) is a very US thing, though, isn't it. Their whole campaigning process is built up in mass rallies, and there is the massive inauguration event. It's just not British

I'm afraid j have to disagree with you there woman. I think treating politics as something you dip in and out of and believing that the governance and running of our country is something best left to others to get on with is one of the things that has got us in this mess.

The amount of times I hear people taking about trump and saying 'but where are the checks and balances' and I want to shout 'you are the checks and balances. Stop expecting someone else to sort it out for you!'. Everyone looking shocked about austerity and cuts when people die as if this hadn't been going on for years if they had just taken a bit of time to look and think.

One of the things that actually gives me hope for the future is seeing how the young have woven politics into their everyday lives. Corbyn at a festival is just one example. Buzzfeed is another great one where you can read in depth articles in politics alongside picture of the 20 cutest kittens on Twitter, also see the rise of Teen Vogue as a political force in the US. I hope this generation keeps this idea of politics as something that is part of the complex fabric of life rather then a side show you engage in every few years.

The adoration of Obama (and other US politicians) is a very US thing, though, isn't it. Their whole campaigning process is built up in mass rallies, and there is the massive inauguration event. It's just not British

Blair and Cameron both played personality politics. They may not have managed the rallies (though I am sure they are both looking on in envy), but then I don't see rallies as inherently bad. Just because some bad people have had rallies doesn't follow that all rallies are bad things. What's wrong with them exactly?

Somebody alluded to 37.5% of the population voting leave in the last thread . 17,410,742 people voted leave . The UK population in 2016 was 65,111,143 . I cannot believe that any government who actually gives two hoots about the people who they are actually elected to serve , would be willing to decimate our economy and the lives of all the 65million plus people living here, because a minority of that population voted to do so . I live in hope that someone , anyone , looks at those figures and does the right thing morally .

I didn't express that very well, Bigly and I agree, letting others do unto us, has led to this mess. This younger generation, especially since extortionate tuition fees, have been politicised more than any Marxist theory could have.

I just mean it would be so lovely, if and when, it isn't so visceral, and that at least some of the problems that have led to this are solved with peace. And we can get on with our lives without macro politics impinging on all of our lives, so very much. Taking part in local, trades union and national politics should just be normal civic duty.

Tories crack the whip as MPs ordered to cancel holiday on vote days
I think that's only right seeing what they are asking disabled people or pele on JSA to do.
After all, this is their JOB so they ought to be present no?

Sorry woman, I went of into full rant mode.

Actually woman I think things work the other way around.
It's people and their vote that keep the democracy process going and the politicians in check.
You can only do that if you are involve, all the time, about what happens in politics.
Otherwise, you let things go, like they have in the recent years and then discover the enormity of the issues when they have hit a point of no return/the consequences are dreadful.
I'm thinking there Grenfell, the poor door in more luxurious tower blocks, the effect pod being poor (aka not being listened to) etc etc etc
And that's just a few things in the last couple of weeks. You could add too the detention centres for the immigrants waiting to be sent back for example.

no worries bigly

From p1 of the new thread:

"I am still drinking Prosecco."

.... while the UK can still afford to import it? (I would normally insert a grin emoticon here to signify lighthearted banter, but I'm not feeling it today. Our weekly shop seems to be creeping inexorably upwards...)

RedPeppers Many Grenfell Towers residents were doing the right thing campaigning for fire safety, to get slapped with legal threats. I'll repost: Taking part in local, trades union and national politics should just be normal civic duty Hopefully, we might get back to/ start that again, with the legal protection to do so.

Place marking

I must say, it's very interesting watching George Osborne feeding shit into the fan at regular intervals. What a nasty man he can be, but he's also intelligent and effective, at throwing shit about anyway.

I know woman but what I mean is that there has been a lot of apathy in the general population lately. So things like this, where the residents of grenfeel were not listen to because basically they are poor and therefore not important, would/should have been picked up BEFORE a tragedy happened iyswim?

I think that what they did was great! I just wish people would be more involved to realise how bad all the human rights are being regularly breeched for about 5 or so years (since the Tories came in). And to react to that rather than just accepting it all :(

bigly have you ever been to a US rally? Chanting and whooping and twirling round towel things- urgh!

It also strongly favours politicians who work well in that environment, when it doesn't necessarily mean that they are any good at the politics or running a country. Slightly ironically, given what we know now, I was rather pleased that a non-showy politician like May got the top job...

May might well have been a perfectly capable PM in normal, rather dull times - doing nothing spectacular, but nothing too bad either. Maybe - I think we don't have to overlook her obsession with immigration. She is completely the wrong politician for turbulent times like now.

Place marking too.

Today I am feeling more sad than usual about Brexit and all it entails. I am one of the 3million. Made my home here in every way, trusting that I was welcome to do so. It feels all broken now. Will probably relocate back to my country of origin after 25 years. I hope that my British dh can join me there. No idea what that will mean for our pensions. No idea if either of us will be able to continue with our careers. But the security of good health care and quality education and life for my dc will have to be worth that risk. Will leave friends and dh's family (Leavers) behind. Can't do with feeling like an unwanted impostor anymore.

Thanks for a new thread and happy Westminstenders anniversary.

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I haven't noticed any twirling round towel things as the Corbyn rallies I've seen clips of. I'm also not really sure you can claim Corbyn of the crumpled suit fame is exactly showy. I can see that if rallies were the only available method of campaigning this could be an issue, but as part of a broad campaign of engagement I really don't see a problem.

Any single method of engagement with people becoming dominant may mean that those who aren't good at that would be disadvantaged, but unless we are going to lock politicians in their rooms for the campaign period and just release an unbranded versions of each manifesto for people to judge I can't see we can avoid them needing to communicate with people in some form. Sometimes rallies can be for bad things, sometimes rallies can be for good things. They are not a bad thing in and of themselves.

Im desperate for dh to consider leaving
But he won't
At least not until it gets really bad

I agree Bigly, I was just saying that the mass rally is a very non-British thing (I haven't seen the Corbyn on stage at Glastonbury footage, but nothing I've seen of him previously is what I'd call a mass rally)

Am loving Matt's "soft Glastonbury " cartoon in today's Telegraph, BTW