Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

Wr need ID so often in the UK that I don't find a national ID system outrageous at all.

It's just that although other countries manage to have a quite cheap, simple system,
I expect the UK to produce 10 years of chaos, high user fees and an expensive IT system that has to be abandoned. That's UK govt SOP.

The UK state no longer manages to change or add systems competently
Hence my worry over Brexit, which is 1000x more complicated than introducing an ID.

It will be interesting to see what will happen. In NI, if you identify as Irish, this does not automatically deprive you of your entitlement to British citizenship as well, as you can have dual citizenship. However, I think you can renounce your British citizenship in NI. Someone may correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think it was done to exercise EU rights to bring an EU spouse. Not as simple as that, but part of it. Dual Irish/British citizenship in NI is different from dual Irish/British citizenship from elsewhere in the UK.

www.darraghobrien.ie/parliamentary-questions/rights-of-18-million-persons-in-northern-ireland-to-eu-citizenship-under-the-good-friday-agreement

So NI is not just the trade / border issue, but affects every NI resident with loyalty towards the RoI
i.e. hundreds of thousands of very angry Catholics / nationalists / Republicans

Frightening

Yes, UK pensioners in Spain, if going back to the UK for healthcare could live here and not register, a lot don't register on the padrón or council lists to avoid paying rates. I think a lot of those pensioners will go back to the UK.

Cailleach - Somerville is symbolic of an issue ... A cut off point for entry is irrelevant as they are native and will be adding new, little Irish EU citizens every day. It won't be self limiting.

I'm pregnant with DC4.

As things stand the government seems to be stating clearly that Irish citizens will not be subject to the cut off point or ID card or any of that, because we have enhanced rights that pre-date the EU.
Those rights are more recent for those of us from the north, though, and are intrinsically bound up in GFA, which is likewise bound up in the EU. And now the DUP gets to influence Brexit negotiations, as the only pro-leave, anti-GFA party in the executive.

Ahem, Sommerville. I may not have done it as eloquently, articulately or clearly, but..

I see The Register has picked up on the DUP deal, and added it to their list of units.

www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/27/dup_one_billion_standards/

Apparently 1 DUP = "the amount of money you find down back of the sofa after telling the family you’re skint".

Bigchoc All the older people I know in France have complex health needs as well, very well catered for in France where they seem to be better at speedy diagnosis and management of chronic problems such as terminal but not aggressive Cancers. We just moved my FIL within the UK with pretty horrendous consequences for his treatment since his records took three months to catch up with the new GP and we were the only source of information on his chemo. Imagine large numbers of pensioners turning up with prostrate and other non aggressive Cancers and other chronic conditions needing treatment and with no means to pay when the system is already broken.

golondrina
If these pensioners come back to the UK, where are they going to live? Many of them sold their UK homes in order to buy a villa in Spain with no mortgage or a very low LTV mortgage.
I had endless chats (about the consequences of Brexit) with my parents' neighbours (Denia) last summer and they were really worried. They still own a smallish house in the UK but not fit for them, as the husband is wheelchair-bound these days. They told me their friends, also Brits residing in the Marinas, had sold their properties when, or soon after, moving to Spain and found now themselves completely out of the property market, they just cannot afford to buy in the UK, even if they were to sell their Spanish properties and get some equity...

Bigchoc I am not convinced by assertions that the UK birth rate is heavily impacted by immigration. Prior to 2000 non UK born population was only about 5% and since then the increase has largely been from EU countries with lower birth rates than the UK.

In any event the actual difference is more important to a discussion of perceived demographic timebomb than the reasons for it surely?

Coming back to the earlier discussion of bringing people to wealth rather than wealth to people it is notable that the EU has been far more inclined to do the former within the EU let alone outside it - population drain from Poland, Romania etc and Southern Europe.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_Union

and with the Spanish property market as it is, their chances of selling and making much of a profit aren't good. My brother's just sold a flat he had on the Spanish coast (nothing to do with Brexit) for half what he bought it for 10 years ago.

Age 4 in hospital hands bandaged heavily because a care worker decided that my olive skin was dirty and thought scrubbing my hands with a floor scrubber and 2 bottles of bleach would make me clean enough for her.

Is this something that happened to you? Was this in the UK by a white British HCP? That is just so utterly, utterly horrible.

I am not surprised at all that you feel pissed off about a HCP telling you that you ought to pay for your healthcare.

NHS care is free at the point of delivery, this is one of its basic principles. Another core principle is that healthcare should be based on clinical need, not ability to pay.

It must have seemed outrageous to you that a HCP who is supposed to work within these guidelines gave you a lecture about why you shouldn't be receiving this therapy free of charge. I'd really consider making a formal complaint. Sos I apologise for interpreting your tone as xenophobic as I realise that what we write on the Internet isn't always well phrased and poignant can definitely easily be misinterpreted. In this current climate it's so easy to hop to conclusions.

Without any accusations of any sort i have noticed that quite a lot of people who are 2nd G immigrants from former British colonies are not in favour of the EU. I have heard that the reason is that Eastern Europeans are supposedly more racist towards non white-, non Christian people themselves.

One of my friends' mother was born in Sri Lanka. She is a midwife and utterly racist even though she is not white herself. She is racist about people with African heritage and has no time for Eastern Europeans. I believe we all can fall prey to xenophobic rhetoric as it surrounds us.

I xposted with you Cailleach - apologies.

golondrina
your poor brother, I guess he bought at the peak of the madness and maybe in a not-so-established development?
Just as an example, my parents' neighbours would make a huge profit (bought in the late 80s) however they remortgaged an unencumbered property in order to get funds for youngest daughter's wedding(late 90s) and help grandchildren onto the property ladder, but this is not the usual case. In any case, these funds would not be enough to buy a disabled-friendly property in the area they come from. And they want to stay.

He bought in 2006 (so pre-crisis) and now 11 years later needs the money tied up in it. It's on the Costa de la Luz and there is just so much development and so many people looking to sell that the competition is fierce. He's taking what he can get out of it, because he doesn't think it'll ever recoup its value, or at least not for such a long timeframe that it's unfeasible to keep it on as basically a holiday home. I think prices for that kind of property are still dropping actually. Hoping to sign next week.

He bought it with an inheritance so at least doesn't have a mortgage and isn't in negative equity or anything, could be a lot worse. Property is always a gamble.
But, I imagine there are pensioners who might have done similar, bought at the height of the market and now not be able to sell and go back to the UK and buy anything there (and be past of the age of getting a mortgage obviosly).

Sheffiedi yes this is something that happened to me. It was a care worker that did it to me when I was in care. The podiatrist was a migrant but I did not say that because she was a migrant it was just to get point across not very well I am afraid. I need not lie. Abuse has followed me all my life but at my age I just shrug it off now. Thanks shefiedi I should not tell my private horror stories really I am the least racist person ever. Peace to you genuinely said and meant.

2005-2007 would have been what I called the peak of the madness. I do not know Costa de la Luz that much but yes, I think he was in the position I had guessed.
One of my best friends (Spanish) works in banking, mortgage-related, and I remember her commenting how mad the prices were. Basically something in the Costas was being advertised at 120k and a guy would come an offer 150k and two weeks later it would have been sold at 180k to another guy. These properties are never going to recoup that because basically they are not worth it. She told me that when property valuations came much higher the clients and their solicitors requested more money and bought a second 'investment; property with the 'proceeds'!
This was the 'norm' in holiday home developments marketed to non-residents or non-Spanish. Most of these properties have now been repossessed, hence the reason of the high numbers of cheap properties in the market.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/philip-hammond-brexit-uk-european-union-approach-hard-leave-eu-soft-theresa-may-stance-conservatives-a7810761.html

Hammond saying again that itnwiuod be better for the U.K. To stay within Europe.
If the guesses are right and he is the next PM, you can hope for a better handling of the situation. Soft Brexit, no Brexit.

Dreams....

Simon Nixon‏**@Simon**_Nixon
David Davis: "EU partnership will require new dispute resolution mechanism. It won't be ECJ but it will be supranational." #TimesCEOSummit

David Allen Green‏****@davidallengreen
The sheer pointlessnees of all this.
Really, it would be cheaper to have some form of auto-change for EU nomenclature just for UK consumption, leaving substance unaltered

Derek Hill‏*@dlghill*
Would just removing the word "Europe" / "European" from every European institution and regulation work?

David Allen Green‏****@davidallengreen
Swap it with "Churchill" and the Brexiteers will all clap along.

Simon Nixon‏**@Simon**_Nixon
David Davis: "EU partnership will require new dispute resolution mechanism. It won't be ECJ but it will be supranational." #TimesCEOSummit

David Allen Green‏****@davidallengreen
Transnational Union Resolving Disputes would have just the right....

Barbara Rich‏*@BarbaraRich*_law
Transnational European Dispute Interim Uniform Measures

David Allen Green‏****@davidallengreen
"Single Market" is not used in the EU treaties. "Internal market" is.
EU should just say UK not in Single Market, on this basis. Sorted.

On ECJ and new body
May end up like Supreme Court and Privy Council.
Same judges, even same building, same everything, different label.

"Are we sitting as the ECJ today?"
"No. As the new UK-ECJ thingy"
"Oh, quick let's change our robes."
"Phew, that was close."

Seriously I think David Allen Green's idea for BEANO (Brexit Exists In Name Only), might be more realistic than we realise. Its smoke and mirrors to confuse the majority of leavers and can be sold without the backtrack as a 'victory'. I certainly do not rule it out for the ECJ at the very least.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/27/david-davis-id-cards-eu-nationals-civil-rights
At last it’s clear: David Davis is against identity cards – except for EU nationals

Sos
You know what, I'm glad about both our posts. I feel I learned a valuable lesson.

it was just to get point across not very well I am afraid.
I understand this now and think that that (my) jumping to negative conclusions is quite typical of me, especially right now. It gives me food for thought about my own (often too negative) attitudes and beliefs and for that I thank you.

I need not lie. Abuse has followed me all my life but at my age I just shrug it off now.
I hope and wish you that it no longer follows you even if the hurts from the past cannot be undone.

Thanks shefiedi I should not tell my private horror stories
You are absolutely right and shouldn't share more than is absolutely comfortable. But I am glad you shared this and very sad that such shit exists at all and send all the peace right back atcha . Also genuinely meant.

And unmumsnetty XXXX to SOS

Sorry to everyone else for this little detour / derail.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/27/brexit-will-cement-disenfranchisement-of-millions-of-citizens

I have to say I actually disagree with the idea that having a card proving your right to stay in the U.K. Will be disenfranchising eu citizens.
In my view, as one of these eu citizens, it's pretty normal. no one seem to have been offended by no eu immigrants to have one.
And yes we will loose the right to vote on local elections. But then, did that vote have such huge impact on daily lives?

Tbh this is a real small issue in my view. The ability to stay, to leave for a while and then come back, pensions and benefits and access to housing associations etc etc are all much bigger issues for me.
And. That to be solved including for all the not so usual cases. Eg if one eu parent is staying because they have British dcs and the father is living in the uk (so they can't go back to their country), unmarried couples. People who have been away for a year or more for work (like the academic in Scotland) etc...

Yes, and they kept on building and building so the market is swamped. But, it could be and is worse for lots of people, his was a holiday home. He played the market and lost.

Red DD has actually said that it will NOT be an ID card but a document proving that you can reside/work in the uk.

I'm not pro DD but in that case, I agree with him. It's impossible to track and Police eu citizens wo a document like this. The same than there is one for non eu citizens.
(Track and police in the way that you need to be able to fight illegal immigration as well as knowing what sort of immigration you have, levels of immigration etc...)

What I'd like to know is what they are planning for the future and the children of these eu citizens given the indefinite right to stay. If those children are not british, will they also automatically be given the right to stay too, 5, 10 or 30 years donw the line?