Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

Oleanna - I believe he came on a working visa as he worked in an industry (catering) that it was easy for immigrants to enter. Knowing my dad, I can't imagine there was much form-filling involved so, as he had relatives who were over here already and a set of chef whites, I think it must have all been very straightforward, perhaps the acquiring of paperwork was even retrospective once he was here and could prove he was self-sufficient.

He's never even thought about applying for British citizenship and, to be honest, as someone who left school at 12 and has never read a book in his life, let alone one in English, I don't think he would be able to now the written test is part of it (I know that acquiring citizenship isn't the same as applying for PR but I get fed up of people saying: "Well, why didn't he just become a UK citizen if he wanted to stay so badly." - there are many, many reasons why people don't).

And I know it's not quite the same, but all UK citizens will lose their ability to travel without hindrance in 27 other countries. More removal of rights. I feel very angry about residents losing their right to remain, but also about everyone's lost travel entitlements.

'Taking back control'? Losing freedoms, more like.

Certainly within the EU, it was easy to live abroad until last June. I've been doing it since 1998 and never had any problems or worries until Brexit.

"Trump has won a victory on his travel ban. The world gets worse and worse."

It does feel a bit like that but maybe it's the 24 realtime news that makes it seems this way.

22m Americans to lose cover in Senate healthcare bill breaking news on BBC.

A pp said upthread that EU citizens who reside in the UK ought to have the same rights as UK citizens, not more by retaining some basic EU rights.

The problem with this is that May's government is treating the 3million as an inconvenient and awkward population that is a nuisance to her 'cleansing' policy. Because that is what this looks like. Making life unpredictable for E27 living in the UK so that they find it untenable to remain here. I feel we need to be protected from this neo fascist agenda and hope the EU will sort this out for us. I'd also like to know that I will receive my state pension if I move back to my country of origin. I have paid taxes for a very long time and em entitled to state and private pension.

'Taking back control'? Losing freedoms, more like.
The only problem is the Leavers won't think that this was what they voted for, they will blame the EU for being unreasonable.

Just in passing, notice how there haven't been any Leavers on this particular thread.

howabout still comes on

The Times Lead tomorrow:

May buys DUP support with £1 billion 'bung'.

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/26/shelter-under-microscope-over-partnerships-with-construction-industry?CMP=share_btn_tw
Shelter under microscope over partnerships with construction industry
Homelessness charity received £15,000 in donations from company that supplied cladding for Grenfell Tower

This story with Grenfell and Shelter just gets worse and worse...

BBC Newsnight‏ @BBCNewsnight
Our Policy Editor @xtophercook reveals how bodies tasked with enforcing building regulations are helping contractors to get around the rules
twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/879456057226964993

facepalm

It's a shame, as I would genuinely welcome contributions from Leavers on the thread.

Agree Sheffield. The whole exercise is immoral. Special ID cards for EU nationals; very reminiscent of having to wear a yellow star during Nazi Germany to be easily recognisable. Abhorrent policies. I hope that this government will collapse but I very much doubt it. Dacre is normalising all these néo-fascism proposals in order to make them totally acceptable to the general public.

Torygraph lead:

Fury over 'grubby' deal with DUP

May's 'generous' offer means EU nationals lose the right to vote in local elections. That's a big one.

I suppose I was thinking of semi-permanent, and one or two others - Corcory - not seen for ages.

I understand everyone's concerns and sympathise with you all. But, the fact of the matter is, I feel that EU citizens should have the SAME rights as British citizens but not more. I know we as British citizens don't have a lot of rights and its up to us as an electorate to change that. But it is not right that EU nationals get more rights than Brits. I would not dream if going to another country, reside there, and expect more rights than the natives. I would expect the same rights but not more. If I went to Australia, fell in love and got married my husband could not come here unless the monetary obligations in place was met, but an EU national living here can go to Australia get married and bring their husband back. It is only fair that they too have to meet monetary requirements to do that too. It is not unfair to say that. I value all our EU nationals and non EU nationals and think they are equal to me. But this is my country and I should not have less rights than EU or no n EU nationals. Simple is and simple done. And no the EU can't force their court on us. Our justice system is well revered and is good enough for us so should be good for others. If it is not then something will have to be done about it to make sure it is. I mean no offence at all by this post to anyone as you are all lovely. If you as EU Nationals have to have ID cards then so should I etc etc etc. The EU who say we cannot have our cake and eat it need to realise nor can they. Rant over and no I am not a brexiteer or a remained im still in the middle. peace to all nite nite

Yes Red, I read this in a French newspaper. Am surprised that it was not picked up by journalists.

I had a long walk with my DH to calm me down. He compared EU nationals as such: a) you live legally in this country and breathe free air then b) the air is being suddenly restrained through no fault of yours finally c) you are made to pay for the bit of air you now are allowed to breathe and told to be grateful for being permitted to breathe any air at all.
Am very, very bitter about the whole thing..

Guardian lead:

May hands £1 billion bonanza to DUP to cling on at No 10.

That's a weaker headline than both the times and Torygraph.

sos The problem is, that EU citizens made their lives in the UK under these conditions
May wants to change them retrospectively.
That ruins lives

May wants to keep reducing rights further and further for everyone.
We don't know what rights she will remove next.
The EU are just standing up for their own citizens in saying they want to keep the existing rights
So that their citIzens don't join us on a downward spiral

I don't understand the logic that because we are making our own lives crappier, it's unfair that the EU won't let us make the lives of their citizens crappier too.

The EU made rights for EU expats uniform everywhere
In cases where these meant more rights than the native inhabitants, other countries seem to have chosen to harmonize upwards

The UK choose to allow EU citizens to have more rights than UK ones, because it doesn't want UK citizens to have any more rights than now
Think about that.

The Tories always want to harmonize by removing rights - except for the very wealthy.
Their rights are always increased

Anyway, expats are one of the issues - NI and final bills - that have to be agreed in principle before any talks on trade can start

Keeping current rights for EU expats is a stated redline for the EU.
They probably won't back down, at least not for a long time.

So May's determination to reduce rights is reducing the time left to discuss trade, so reducing the chance of a less damaging Brexit deal.

Are you sufficiently cross that some people have retained rights - which you lost several years ago - to also lose a trade deal ?

SOS: I understand some of your points but I think it naive to think that EU nationals will have more rights than British citizens in the long run. I predict that all the rights will be eroded and EU nationals will be made second class citizens.
You will see signs: 'no EU nationals need apply'.
Moreover they will have to carry an EU national ID card (although denied by David Davis) unlike British citizens who do not have one. I bet that state pensions and health care in which many of EU nationals paid into for decades will be 'confiscated' . Property? May be although under international law but the UK does not have to agree with judgements.
Also didn't you notice that EU spouses of British people and mothers of British children do not have a right to family? They will have to register or be deported. Is this right? No, it is immoral.

Anyone who chooses to come here to make their lives and any Brit who goes to EU to make their lives do so out of choice, their choice. No one should take it for granted in either circumstance that things won't change. I don't like the proposed changes, but nor do I like unequal rights. But, and it is a big but, and I really feel for anyone who is feeling so insecure both here and abroad it was, however, your choice in your life. The world is changing and not for the better. And, no one should take anything for granted or assume anything. It really is a precarious thing to do. Years ago I had a choice to make a life abroad. But I asked myself many questions a and decided that it was not for me because nothing in life is certain except death. I chose not to take that chance, others choose to take that chance.. No one is responsible for my choice only me is responsible, and the same goes for others. Bit if a hard thing to say, again no offence meant but a true thing to say.

Shaking that money tree again for Brexit:

(Telegraph paywall) British tourists to be guaranteed free health treatment in Europe, Government to announce

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/25/british-tourists-guaranteed-free-treatment-europe-government/

British tourists will be guaranteed free health cover when they are on holiday in the EU, David Davis has disclosed
....
The Brexit Secretary will ask the EU to continue with the current European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) scheme, and said that if Brussels refuses, the Government will foot the £155 million a year bill.

I hear you Sos.

In fact your post has led to a bit of a lightbulb moment for me...

The UK has a piecemeal, largely unwritten constitution. Things have evolved slowly on the whole, often with legislation catching up with public mores (e.g. legalizing gay marriage), sometimes driving behaviour changes (e.g. smoking, drink driving). But generally by broad consensus and where things are very much out of step with the public mood they are usually eventually dropped (eg poll tax, ID cards). The EU systems themselves, and the UK's place within them, have also evolved incrementally.

But Brexit is turning into a process to define the UK in one fell swoop: the agreement we reach with the EU is not totally dissimilar to the American Declaration of Independence, setting out the status of the country and the rights and responsibilities of its citizens.

But there is no consensus on what should be in it. What it should mean to be a Brit in the 21st century, and what hospitality we should extend to our friends and families who live here or aspire to live here. How we want to generate wealth, how we care for our vulnerable. Because of how the last 12 months have played out, it's hard to argue that anyone has a mandate to do anything very significant. The process is moving too fast and leaving too many people behind.

And that's a failure of political leadership. Where are our John Hancocks, our John Adams, our George Washingtons?

The two year deadline set out in Article 50 is clearly an arbitrary timescale, included because something had to be included but was never really expected to be used. Frankly, 20 years or even 200 years would still be tight for the sort of thinking we need to be doing about the future of our country.

Thanks a lot Cameron