Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

sos If UK citizens can be flogged every day, should the EU agree that it's own citizens should be flogged too, out of solidarity ?

How does it hurt you to keep your current rights and the E27 keep their current rights ?

If Brits could be flogged every day there wouldn't be any EU or nonEU nationals here if they had a modicum of sense because they would have to follow our countries laws as we have to follow other countries laws when we reside in them.

(same paywall article>

He [DD] said he believed European leaders would come under pressure from “the German car industry, Bavarian farmers, French farmers, Italian white goods manufacturers, you name it” to strike a trade deal
because the EU has a £60 billion trade surplus with the UK.

< so he STILL hasn't progressed beyond that.
The GERMAN CAR INDUSTRY KEEP SAYING THE SINGLE MARKET IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE UK (shouting so DD hears)
Anyway, there is no time to negotiate a special trade deal, only to grab an off-the shelf one and add Financial Passporting. Even that probably needs an extension of the 2 years>

Baroness Chakrabarti, the shadow attorney general, said Labour might not have “complete control” over migration if it got into power
.....
“What is important is that jobs come first, the economy comes first and that means getting tariff-free access to the single market and the formalities we will negotiate.”

"But I asked myself many questions a and decided that it was not for me because nothing in life is certain except death. "

I'm sorry but this is complete nonsense. We have laws and courts to enforce them in order to reduce uncertainty (e.g. regarding property rights), to allow for planning and investment. That's why there is generally a presumption against backtracking changes to laws. This, as others have pointed out, is what is wrong with the government's offer to EU citizens. They came here in good faith, during the referendum campaign we were told that nothing would change, and now they are having their rights removed.

Ollenuswimple great points.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness post up there - promise I haven't been on the

I hate when we get involved in a race to the bottom, but I confess I haven't seen nearly as much outrage expressed outside lobbying bodies and industry groups for the rights of non-EU workers and family members as is currently being expressed for EU citizens in the UK. Over the years it's become harder and harder to come to the UK to work, study or make a family, and in large part the tightening has been due to our broad inability to bear down on EU numbers. (Though the more I learn about freedom of movement, the more I realise how much we completely cocked up implementation and enforcement, and could quite possibly have prevented getting to the point where a referendum was called, never mind won)

sos The current situation is that May is delaying progress to a trade deal, because she wants to reduce rights of E27 citizens.

The UK needs a trade deal desperately, because otherwise it will Brexit without any trade deals with the EU or the rest of the world.
The EU can still trade within its 27 members and has hundreds of trade deals and arrangements with the rest of the world. So, obviously has much less of a problem.

Would you really prefer to abandon a trade deal - and hence the UK become poorer - rather than let the EU citizens keep their existing rights ?

That seems the definition of "cutting off your nose to spite your face"

David Whitley‏ @mrdavidwhitley

The bad news for the DUP is that the billion pounds is coming in £10 notes with Charles Darwin on the back.

No one is responsible for my choice only me is responsible, and the same goes for others. Bit if a hard thing to say, again no offence meant but a true thing to say.

That's not strictly true.

If you are only responsible for the choices available to you. Who makes those choices available to you?

Your life is limited by opportunity. Who gives you opportunity. Opportunity is connected with rights. Fewer rights = fewer opportunities = fewer choices.

You still have responsibilities - as directed to you by the state and society. These are things you can influence but only with combined force. Otherwise you are subject to them and restricted by them.

This is why we should always stand up for rights of others, even if it means that others might end up with more if this means that it might influence our ability to be able to push for more ourselves.

Roll back of rights, only ever serves to take away choices about the decisions we are able to make in our lives.

Don't underestimate this and don't talk them down.

You take your freedom for granted. Be more aware of how easily that is lost. We are at a crossroads and we need everyone to realise what's really at stake.

It's no a question of it being 'unfair'. That's just spin to stripe you of your own rights. It's about what is 'right'. Be morally superior and it will pay off for you too.

Treat others as you would like to be treated. The idea works upwards as well as down.

Missmoon you miss the point. What you choose in your life is your responsibility. If the life you choose goes tits up endless laws cannot be made to protect little old you all of the time. You want to live and work abroad then have a contingency of your own if it goes wrong. Countries and governments change. I mean those Brits living in Spain better keep an eye on Gibralter cos we could be at war with Spain over it soon. Who knows what is round the corner? The only thing anyone knows for CERTAIN is that one day you will die. Can t tell you when, you might have to plan for it.

If Brits could be flogged every day there wouldn't be any EU or nonEU nationals here if they had a modicum of sense because they would have to follow our countries laws as we have to follow other countries laws when we reside in them.

Your choice is be flogged twice a day outside the EU in Imaginastan. You could move to the UK and be flogged once a day. Sounds fab. Until you think about how you could live in the EU and not be flogged.

It's an issue of relativity. Why choose to be flogged at all?

Olenna It messes up lives far more to lose rights retrospectively, than when you know from the beginning what rights you will have.
There is a reason why laws are not normally retrospective

The EU has the clout and the will to protect its citizens.
Sadly, developing countries much less. So although there are many campaigns, they don't have the energy when the chance of success is much lower

.... except we've already seen India say that easing visa rules for workers and their dependants is one of their conditions for a trade deal with the UK
Some other countries have followed suit

That really angered May and DD, so it's stopped progress on at least any Indian trade deal

sos Laws aren't being made to protect E27 citizens.
May is scrapping existing law

I'm a EU citizen in the UK, married to a non-EU citizen. You may not have been exposed to it, but there was definitely outrage outside lobbying bodies at the successive policies of the Home Office under May. I would also disagree with your "the tightening has been due to our inability to bear down on EU numbers". Let's put the blame on this where it should be - with May's obsession on migration numbers, not with the fact the EU protected its citizens.

Missmoon you miss the point. What you choose in your life is your responsibility. If the life you choose goes tits up endless laws cannot be made to protect little old you all of the time. You want to live and work abroad then have a contingency of your own if it goes wrong. Countries and governments change. I mean those Brits living in Spain better keep an eye on Gibralter cos we could be at war with Spain over it soon. Who knows what is round the corner? The only thing anyone knows for CERTAIN is that one day you will die. Can t tell you when, you might have to plan for it.

This is a roll over and die post. It's a blah I accept things cos I'm powerless to do anything else.

Which means you've already been 'got' too in your head by a deliberate strategy to make you feel powerless when the reality is rather different.

You are more powerful than you think right now. It's a choice to roll over. But that choice to fight on is passing... You are taking your freedom for granted. It will go if you don't fight for it and appreciate it.

If it really is a widespread view in the Uk, that you would rather be poorer than see someone else keep something they've already got

.... then I'm definitely staying in Germany if I can
Along with most other scientists from the UK braindrain

"You want to live and work abroad then have a contingency of your own if it goes wrong."

How does that work if you marry another EU citizen, settle, have kids etc? What is this contingency meant to be for the whole family? And why would anyone have ever thought they needed to have one in the EU?

THE best way in the last twenty years to keep down immigration would have been to train and educate Brits better or provide them with better mobility to get to jobs.

This would have made us less dependent on EU and nonEu immigration and there would have been fewer jobs to immigrants available.

Instead we have the topsy turvy thinking that immigration and the EU policy is to blame rather than the government for domestic policy failing to ensure that people were invested in.

Can we stop blaming others for our own incompetence and lack of forward planning and responsibility to our citizens as a nation please?

Tell me, why should I stay in flogging England post Brexit if I could join the brain drain to none flogging Germany to visit Big Choc even if it's more complex, if I have the ability to go?

Those who can will.

There is no one that could beat me to be first in line to protect peoples rights. I believe everyone us equal. I have spent years protecting those that could not protect themselves. I have said repeatedly that EU and non EU citizens residing in this country have equal rights with me. Not more but equal. Lots if valid points have been made about peoples rights. Thus is a small country with lots of people in it and more coming. We do not have room for many more. That is not discrimination

Thus is a small country with lots of people in it and more coming. We do not have room for many more. That is not discrimination

I dispute that. I will grant that the south east is overcrowded, but the rest of the country most certainly isn't.

Nor is it to say people already here are not valued. But we cannot keep going on the way we are. Change has been in the air for a long time. Brexit is going to happen whether we want it or not. We do have to control numbers coming in to the country. We cannot do that through the EU. It really does have to happen. We do need to train our own workforce another fa t which is true. Big businesses, small businesses will have to be weaned off their addiction to cheap labour. We need still the marvelous brains and skills other nationalities give us. But we also have brains and skills in this country who we need to encourage to stay
in Britain. How we do that is complicated and long term. So we really must start to do that now. Before its too late. That is why we need a socialist government. While the Tories stay in thus country will die on its feet and all of us will suffer.

BigChoc - but as I understand it, the rules are not going to be changed with a retrospective effect? I could have missed something (a lot of material and commentary has been published today) but essentially transitional arrangements will be in place initially before the new rules come into force. Notably, some requirements (e.g. health insurance) will be relaxed in order to smooth the transition.

The big thing that is changing is the psychological shift from "you're practically one of us" to "you aren't really one of us" and i don't underestimate how difficult that must be. Non-EU visa holders perhaps have felt like that previously (someone upthread wondered if there would be signs prohibiting EU workers applying for jobs; well, many non-EU residents are already ineligible to apply for jobs - and we've changed the rules on that eligibility too over time)

Peregrina I am in no way discriminating. I am mixed race who suffered dreadfully in the 50s so dont think that of me. I am not so eloquent as others. I speak the truth we must control our borders somehow, but fairly and justly, not Mays way.

sos The 27 countries have the power here, despite DD's ravings
They can't force the UK to keep existing rights, but they can and probably will refuse a trade deal

How much poorer are you prepared to be, in order to take away someone's rights - just because you don't have them ?