Westministenders: No Brexit is Better than a Bad Brexit

[RedToothBrush]

Happy Anniversary!!!

These Threads are officially 1 year old today.

I don't know who started the very first thread, but it was about how Cameron quitting had handed the Boris a poison chalice because he had to be the one to trigger a50 as Cameron walked away without having done it.

Of course Boris didn't become PM, and we found out that triggering a50 and Brexit were even more complex than even the majority of the most informed thought it would be.

A year on we have a minority government, a zombie prime minister, a government who don't really know what the concept of democracy, millions of EU citizens (who include British nationals) who face an uncertain future, the fear of the cliff edge, a huge scandal over inequality and Jeremy Corbyn appearing on the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury within the hour.

I mean, they won just 300,000 votes in the GE.

Peregrina, they are rallying around ATM. I can't see the event that will trigger a collapse in the government.
Yet.

"Events, dear boy, events."

Hence my comment about building their house upon the sand with the tide coming in...

they made 'events' more likely.

Those 10 DUP MPs represent just 300,000 people (whereas the libdems, with their 12 seats, won something like 2.7 million votes).

That is shocking!

Hello - I'm a long time lurker and would like to say thank you to all of you for your company and wisdom for the last year. This thread is my go-to-place whenever I have a spare moment (standing in queues, DC watching tv, waiting for kettle to boil etc) and I think I've managed to read all of it. It's brought companionship in difficult times. Thank you all . I would love to post more often but don't have the levels of political knowledge!

I would love to post more often but don't have the levels of political knowledge!

Welcome. I imagine that all of us have learnt something new over the last year. I certainly have, especially with ron's postings about South East Asia.

Laura Kuenssberg‏Verified account @bbclaurak

DUP deal now expected by lunchtime today, sources have told @BBCPolitics -we may, within the next couple of hours, have an actual government

What would Scooby do I was the most politically illiterate person on here but through participating in the thread I have learnt so much. Yes I make gaffs and am opinionated and yes sometimes those aren't as well informed as they should be. But my wonderful friends on here have put me right but also have widened my view on many subjects. So come on in and have a Chinwag with us all

Apologies if anyone else has posted this - from the Institute for Government - The options for the UK’s trading relationship with the EU
www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/brexit-explained/brexit-explained-options-uk%E2%80%99s-trading-relationship-eu

The graphic and the notes below it are, I think, clear and concise.

Citizenship has been took off GCSE options this year at gdds and GDS schools due to funding cuts. Environmental studies also been removed from A level choice for same reasons. And am fed up that the fact that, the internal refurb of Grenfell and the other 4 towers in Camden where people have been evacuated were down to cowboy builders and no one will come out and say it.

The point of the thread is to learn and to try to encourage people to think about politics. It is to encourage democracy and accountability. We might not be able to stop Brexit, but whatever happens the need for accountability is crucial. If Brexit doesn't happen so much the better.

Democracy is about debate and hearing the voices of all citizens. The national interest is about acting in the best interests of everyone. This includes thinking about the interests of minority voices and those less able to get their voice heard.

Brexit is in no small part down to a long term breakdown in democracy and it's institutions and loss of faith in those who are supposed to serve us. Instead they think we are there to serve them.

People might suggest this is a socialist ideal. It's not necessarily. It's a democratic one first.

I have learnt so much over the course of this year and am grateful to everyone who contributes. Asking questions helps those who answer be able to articulate things or encourages everyone to find out more if they don't know the answer immediately. It's important for people with less knowledge to contribute for this reason. Learning what people don't know is an education in its own right and its valuable to know.

Eloquently put Red as usual.

To me, half the battle over Brexit is that if it goes tits-up and its prominent cheerleaders are spinning lines like "I wasn't 100% in my support", "who could have known there would be problems?", "I most certainly did not make that promise", "a big boy did it and ran away", etc then they can have their faces rubbed in the massive turd they've left in our collective living room.

"a big boy did it and ran away"

Yes nauticant but what if it is a success? (Shoots down sky blue pink flying pigs).

JC needs to sit tight be a good opposition and wait till brexit turns to mush before making a move for PM job. Let the Tories take all the blame and have a good strategy to clear up mess afterwards. Concentrate Jezza, concentrate.

It could be a success. Genetic engineering is advancing all of the time and those flying pigs could indeed be seen out of our windows some time soon.

What gets me is that it looks like a disproportionate risk and it was sold to us with guarantees of a great future just round the corner.

Just realised May gonna be busy Thursday cos she's got to get the Queens speech through AND NI got to come to agreement on same day as its deadline time there too.

Yes nauticant but what if it is a success?

Wrong question: Who does Brexit aim to be successful for? And how?

Yes true Nauticant, that's why I could not vote in referendum. I did, however vote in election. The ref was first time I never used my vote.

Theresa May says we are going to make Brexit a success for everyone. There is a big reason for this.

They know people accept and don't ask questions.

Now Red that is a degree level question! I'm only an A level arts student lol!

As I always said brexit didn't seem to make any difference to me bar we got rid of Cameron, only to be replaced by May. But I do see now how leaving is a bad idea for all. But, I really haven't heard anything positive much about leaving either. Somewhere, someone thought there were positive things about leaving, wasn't there?

Thank you everyone.
I live in a massively remain area (according to my experience & also to the electoral calculus stats) We have a remain Labour MP who is generally a good guy. But nobody here talks publicly about Brexit other than to acknowledge briefly that it's a disaster. Why the silence? Has anybody experienced this elsewhere?

Haha, well to be fair the job of the media is supposed to be asking those difficult questions on your behalf, if you can't think of them.

Unlike Laura K here:

Laura Kuenssberg‏*@bbclaurak*
Morning - govt giving the black and white on citizens' deal today

David Allen Green‏**@davidallengreen**
This is Number 10 spin.

Government's position likely to be incomplete, and unsustainable in the negotiation.

Hardly "the black and white".

From Fri:
Boris Johnson‏ @BorisJohnson
Fair and serious offer from UK to EU nationals - let's hope it reassures and let's hope it is reciprocated

David Allen Green‏**@davidallengreen**
EU had already made "reciprocal" offer to UK before he sent this tweet. Johnson would have known this.

Misinformation and misdirection.

Am not opposed to Brexit in principle, but the misinformation and misdirections from UK side is now torrential. Nothing reliable is said.

EU's official position (dated 12th June):
ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/essential-principles-citizens-rights_en_0.pdf

These are the general principles but there is more detail in the document:

The following general principles should apply in accordance with Union law, as interpreted by the Court of Justice of the European Union at the date of entry into force of the Withdrawal Agreement [including also interpretations given in cases pending on the date of withdrawal for which the Court's competence is maintained pursuant to the Withdrawal Agreement]:

(1) Same level of protection as set out in Union law at the date of withdrawal of EU27 citizens in the UK and of UK nationals in EU27 including the right to acquire permanent residence after a continuous period of five years of legal residence;

(2) Equal treatment in the UK of EU27 citizens as compared to UK nationals, and in EU27 of UK nationals as compared to EU27 citizens, in accordance with Union law;

(3) Equal treatment amongst EU27 citizens by and in the UK in all matters covered by the Withdrawal Agreement, without prejudice to Common Travel Area arrangements between the UK and Ireland;

(4) EU27 citizens or UK nationals who resided legally respectively in the UK or EU27 at the date of entry into force of the Withdrawal Agreement should be considered legally resident even if they do not hold a residence document evidencing that right. Documents to be issued in relation to these rights should have a declaratory nature and be issued either free of charge or for a charge not exceeding that imposed on nationals for the issuing of similar documents;

(5) All citizens' rights set out in the Withdrawal Agreement should be granted as directly enforceable vested rights in both the UK and in EU27 as specified in Section IV.