Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?

[optionalrationale]

We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.

So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?

Here's what I want..

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.

Bullshit. This is my parents' generation.
I'm a Remainer.

Who the fuck makes these ridiculous points?

Oh man

Last one i swear

The channel islands which are part of the part of the uk was invaved during world war 2

Parts of many english cities were destroyed during the war

Deffo going now as the sausage rolls are done

Night all

woman

Jesus optional
Rufus was totally clear. We declared war on Germany. Therefore we formally initiated the UK's war with Germany. By invading Poland Germany started war with Poland, not the UK.
It's not hard.
People who remember WW2 see avoiding that kind of conflict again as a positive of the EU, in fact I believe part of the purpose of the EU was to minimise risk in Europe. So it is relevant to talk about WW2, WW1 or any of the other interesting European wars.

Of course the EU is part of a "never again " consensus across Europe- us included. The break up of Yugoslavia showed us how fragile this is.
I think being part of that progressive idea away from horror is a good reason for remaining in the EU. My view didn't prevail. Doesn't change my view.

Agree, Bringmesunshite

At least anti racist, women's rights activist and all round good egg Erdagon has just won the referendum after a record breakingly quick vote count. 55million votes counted in an hour, bit of a record that.

Even Teresa May and Nick Timothy couldn't do that, no matter how guilty the Electoral Commission found them of Electoral Fraud.

We just need famous anti racist and pro Jewish rights campaigner Frexiteer Le Pen to win in a month for a Euro hat trick.

"A poster (sorry I'm very tired and I can't remember who it was!) made the point that the UK was not invaded in WW2 and was not reduced to rubble like any parts of mainland Europe"

There is some truth to that though, if you look at mainland Europe far many more cities were reduced to rubble than UK ones were. Certainly no British cities suffered as much damage as ones like Warsaw, Berlin, Munich, Dresden and many of the towns and cities in France, Belgium etc.

We certainly never had the executions of entire villages like Oradour Sur Glane, and other atrocities committed in France, Poland and the other occupied countries.

Coventry is twinned with Warsaw for a reason, you idiot.

80-90% of Warsaw was destroyed by the Germans, Coventry was badly damaged, but not as much of it was destroyed completely.

A relative of mine was killed in Coventry blitz. I have living relatives who remember hearing about it. I've seen photos of what happened. Don't play fucking top trumps over Coventry.

And I still voted Remain.

I'm not playing top trumps, I was pointing out that there is some truth to that statement. Coventry was badly damaged, as were other cities, but none recieved the scale of destruction as some on the continent.

Nor did we undergo the horrors inflicted by the occupying forces.

Not even sure what "point " you are trying to make. We didn't get invaded we held out until the US and USSR joined. Coventry was devastated- it wasn't a flipping firework display in the suburbs.
Speak to people who lived through it across Europe including in the U.K. before you start intellectualising about it.
Which is one of the many reasons I voted Remain. Because we work together to avoid this shit again.

The point was that I agree with what a PP said.

A third of the cities houses were made unlivable, and 35% of its shops. Its still not the same as the damage to Warsaw inflicted by the Germans.

Speak to people who lived through it? I do, have done and know an awful lot about it. I never said Coventry was a "firework display in the suburbs".

I also know people from other nations who lived through it, and their children.

Want to tell me about licing through it? I'll take you to Polish towns were on the outskirts they have mass graves, of just ordinary Poles slaughtered by the Germans, someone very close to me is from a Town of about 40,000 and just outside there are the mass graves of 7,000 people from the town who were executed, more than 10% of the population killed, there are family of hers in there.

So yeah, I don't want it to happen again, but I think there is a very valid point that as we were not occupied and not as many of our cities and towns were utterly destroyed, SOME of the UK populace have different attitudes to Europe and the EU.

Oh and we didn't get invaded, you know a lot is made of us "holding out" and yes many fought valiantly, but its also worth remembering that if there had been a land border that the Germans could have come across, we'd have been invaded and defeated too.

*Bringmesunshite

And USSR lost 20m what's your point?

If you don't mind me saying you have an aggressive tone.

How does any of this help with solutions to Brexit?

The last war is over now.

You must be pleased there are so many anti fascists groups organising so well across the west at the moment.

And that those who lost so many are still fighting fascism.

If the point that this thread has meandered to is : some people voted the way they did because they saw what they wanted to see well, not exactly news, is it.
I saw some posters on this thread in a Trump esque pivot, accusing Remain voters of being ignorant about history.
Excuse me if that pisses me off.

Coming very late to your response to me - which doesn't quite answer why you keep barking back to the French in 1940-44, which was my question.

And you do seem to be insistent on muddying the waters between 'bombed' and 'invaded and occupied' which are subtly different experiences, but we've established your form for that sort of thing.

Bringmesumshite
You and I were on opposite sides of the final vote in the referendum. I had started out (leading up to the campaign for the sake of Mistigri who is a bir slow on the uptake), as a very, very Reluctant Remainer - thinking I know the institution of the EU is a bit shit but leaving might be worse.

Since voting leave (have you got that yet Mistigri), I have been somewhat puzzled by the attitudes of some Remainers. Hence, my opening question in this thread.

Frankly, I have been shocked and bemused at some of the crap comimg out from some of the individuals who happen to be on the same side as you.

• Great Britain "technically and factually" started the war with Germany
• The UK doesn't know what it's like to be invaded (I wonder if Rufus's 13 year old has studied the Norman Conquest)
• We were never "reduced to rubble" in WW2 unlike much of Europe (no doubt as because of the evil Brits who "technically and factually started WW2"

Danny
"I'm not playing top trumps, I was pointing out that there is some truth to that statement. Coventry was badly damaged, as were other cities, but none recieved the scale of destruction as some on the continent.

Nor did we undergo the horrors inflicted by the occupying forces"

Danny. Danny. Danny

What exactly is your point?

We had it easy?

We sent the flower of our youth to defend France, Poland, the Netherlands Belgium, Norway and numerous countries around the world when we could have remained aloof and isolationist. And yet, Remainers here still believe we (Great Britain) "started" or now "initiated" WW2.

Fuckadoodledoo

The UK doesn't know what it's like to be invaded (I wonder if Rufus's 13 year old has studied the Norman Conquest)

Some wounds run very, very deep.... 😂😂😂

Games and tea finished

The UK doesn't know what it's like to be invaded (I wonder if Rufus's 13 year old has studied the Norman Conquest)

I never said that or that parts of Britain had not been reduced to rubble

In fact i said the opposite

Who said we initiated the war?

Is it worth noting in passing that England =/= the UK (yet)?

Sorry not the war

World war 2

JassyRadlett
"Coming very late to your response to me - which doesn't quite answer why you keep barking back to the French in 1940-44, which was my question.

And you do seem to be insistent on muddying the waters between 'bombed' and 'invaded and occupied' which are subtly different experiences, but we've established your form for that sort of thing"

What the fuck does that mean?

RufustheRenegadeReindeer
Your words

We declared war on germany...thats how it works the country that declares war 'starts' it...But we 'started' it"