Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?

[optionalrationale]

We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.

So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?

Here's what I want..

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.

optionalrationale would you tell us why you chose to mention trade deals with Canada and Australia?

Noeuf
You might not need to "do" anything. The question was "What do you want"? Or "Where do you stand?". It is a legitimate question to ask in any debate isn't it?

If you're too busy, then feel free not to take part.

As a remainer and I've never been a remoaner It's the loss of human and workers rights that concerns me the most. Also people who live in areas neglected by the Tories who rely on EU funding especially for young peoples jobs. If that money doesn't go via the EU first they'll never see it from now on

Oh so sorry, your post at 8.50 implied we all had to do something. I was just pointing out that I'm not sure what that might be.

Perhaps I could ring number 10 and offer to put their wash on while they draft some legislation ?

I too would be interested in knowing why, for instance, Australia.

You know, which loves the Mother Country so much that UK passport holders need a visa to go there, even on a visit. As a Leave voting acquaintance of mine found out when trying to travel onwards after a stopover, much to his surprise and my amusement.

That's what happens when antiquated world views (but, he blustered, it's the Commonwealth, we have the same head of state) crash head-on into current realities.

I want:

• no border in Ireland
• to be able to trade with our largest markets (i.e. Europe) as easily as now
• to not have the Daily Mail set the agenda for the country
• to behave diplomatically towards other countries (e.g. not threatening war)
• to be a modern, welcoming country, not one that harks for the past Empire (i.e. not always talking about Australia, Canada and India)

We can no longer be part of the EU in 24 months.

We don't know this. With the will and good diplomacy, we don't know what could be negotiated. We have neither the will nor the diplomacy at present.

I do think that if we were to try to remain, or get back in if we did leave, we would have to do an awful lot of fence mending.

Not sure if that's a particularly strong negotiating position now that the Article 50 clock has been started. We can no longer be part of the EU in 24 months.

You seem well informed optional so I'm sire you are aware that while triggering article 50 is a necessary step to leaving it doesn't mean we have to leave at all costs. We have 2 years to negotiate a leaving deal, my third option is that if that deal is shit we don't need to leave. I think 8t would be cutting off our nose to spite our face.
I don't think that's the same as "remain no matter what". That ship sailed in the referendum. If we can get an acceptable deal leaving is fine. It's what we do about an unacceptable deal that concerns me.

Not sure if that's a particularly strong negotiating position now that the Article 50 clock has been started. We can no longer be part of the EU in 24 months.

Nonsense. Art 50 may be unilaterally revocable (see Irish proceedings). If not, it is certainly revocable by mutual agreement. The EU have already said they'd agree to this.

So, it is absolute rubbish to say "no going back now". Brexit could be stopped tomorrow if we wanted to. I suspect as more and more of the "Brexitshambles" becomes evident, there will be increased calls to think again.

Quentin
So is your position Brexit could (should) mean Remain?

there will be increased calls to think again.

But someone has to deal with the extreme Tory right wing. They have helped to destroy the careers of two Tory PMs, (some say three, but I think myself that the Poll Tax destroyed Thatcher.) They could be about to destroy a third PM's career, (not that I would be upset.) At the same time, they are unable to put up a decent candidate themselves to lead the party - neither IDS nor Michael Howard were successes in the role.

I will feel a sense of loss at leaving the EU whatever the deal.

However, for me, a good Brexit deal would mean a better deal for the UK economically than we have currently, better and more friction-free trade arrangements with the EU and the rest of the world, and net job gains.

So basically an improved economic outlook, pound going up, press reports of jobs moving from EU to UK etc might help to mitigate the loss.

I want a second referendum once we know the terms. It was not fair to expect the country to make a decision on such a unclear question.

And yes to a second referendum.

If we get a truly great deal (as promised), why is the Leave camp concerned? Surely the vote will only be clearer once the Project Fear economic arguments are shown up to be wrong? Or maybe not... but if that is the case then why wouldn't you want the chance to change your mind on the basis that you now know more than you did?

I want:

Recognition that it's going to be actually bloody difficult and that we will not be able to walk into a room, say 'this is what we want' and get it.

If we don't, it isn't the EU's fault. It is how a negotiation works.

I would like Parliament to have a meaningful vote at the end, so that the elected representatives can look again if it is suicidal.

I would like proper thought about being subject to the ECJ. There has to be a means of dispute resolution in all trade agreements (actually it should be in all agreements for everything but anyway). The ECJ is better than arbitration as per TTIP and it is wholly fanciful to say UK law will apply - if we go with that, we're trading with ourselves.

I would like a proper infrastructure plan to be implemented now, so if we trade on wto rules (leaving aside if we can) there are customs checks ready with proper staffing, people who know what they're checking and the standard to which it has to be done, and enough space so that Kent and Suffolk don't turn into lorry parks.

MPs Not walking out of the select committee for a lack of positivity would also help.

I would also like to see the nonsense of pulling out of Euratom stopped. This was a completely separate treaty, not even part of the Referendum question, and seems to be wholly motivated by a desire not to be subject to the ECJ. With something like nuclear power, this seems complete stupidity - someone needs to regulate it.

I want Leavers to dig a little deeper than I want the negotiations to go well

I'd like to be offered the chance to remain a European citizen somehow. I'd like to keep my European passport. I don't know how this would work at all, but I think it has been mooted by some bigwig in the EU, that UK individuals who wanted to could be able to have freedom to move and work in the EU.

Same @Wingmirrorspider

I think 48% of us want this

I echo a lot of the sentiments above. I'd also like to see a return to grown-up debate where we don't talk about our EU partners as "vindictive" and "unreasonable". To my mind, Britain is the one who has demanded (and gained) multiple exceptions based on a sense of entitlement, allowed its media to whip up adversarial sentiment rather than talk in terms of facts, and failed to rein in the warmongering and jibes of ministers and political figures.

I'd like it to be acknowledged that the Leave win was on a very small majority.

I'd like it to be acknowledged that there are compromise options EEA/EFTA membership which reflect that nearly 50% of people in the country didn't vote to leave at all, and that a sizeable minority in the leave vote didn't vote to leave the single market, and were told that they wouldn't be.

I'd like it to be acknowledged that trade deals with Canada, NZ and Australia will not be able to make up for lost trade with the EU, and certainly won't be able to make up for firms that have to leave the UK because of complications to do with their supply lines.

I'd like it to be acknowledged that the driving force of the referendum was not democracy and sovereignty, because we saw how badly many leavers and their spokespeople reacted when British laws were used to give our sovereign parliament over this decision.

I'd like it acknowledged that the driving force behind the referendum vote, and the demands to have one, was immigration, and that many of people's fears and concerns are actually not legitimate, but stoked by prejudice and the media.

I

Surly there are three options:
Try and make Brexit work
Do nothing
Try and make Brexit fail hoping it will force us to stay in the EU

I would like Brexiteers to sit down and listen to what the government is telling them every week can be achieved and compare it to what they thought they were voting for and make a dispassionate assessment of whether this amount of disruption, cost and loss of international reputation is worth it.

To start with some obvious examples:

(a) £350 million of extra funds is not going to the NHS each week.
(b) we will probably keep immigration at the level it has been for many years to come and may well keep FoM for some years (David Davis announced this)
(c) EU subsidies are only going to be matched in certain sectors and only until 2020 - what happens then?
(d) to keep frictionless, tarriff-free trade with the EU, we will have to keep ECJ jurisdiction
(e) India, Australia, Canada etc are far more interested in their trade deals with the EU rather than with the UK (EU population = 680 million; UK population = 65 million, go figure)
(f) we will have to keep paying into the EU in order to keep trading (the government accepts this)
(g) we did not lose sovereignty to the EU (the government admits this)
(h) jobs are being lost because of Brexit and are likely to be lost in great numbers should we have hard/disorderly/chaotic Brexit - even companies such as Nissan are committed only to keeping their options open
(i) new jobs are unlikely to result in great numbers because of Brexit
(j) the EU provided funding to many of the most disadvantaged areas of the UK, the areas that Leavers tell us that Remainers don't care about, how are they going to benefit from Brexit?
(k) Northern Ireland - do I even need to explain how crap Brexit is for that country?
(l) Likewise, the Republic of Ireland that didn't get a say in the vote is going to be shafted (the government tacitly acknowledges this and keeps promising no hard border which is not a promise it is able to keep outside the CU and SM).
(m) Scotland may end up leaving the UK which, however one feels about Scottish independence, will only cause more upheaval and disruption to what remains of the UK.
(n) Gibraltar is likely to be stuffed by a hard border.
(o) the loss of amazing institutions such as the European Medicines Agency and the very real threat of a serious brain-drain from profitable, internationally renowned and exportable industries such as pharmaceuticals, engineering, financial services etc.
(p) there is little evidence that the rest of the EU is falling apart and the UK leaving "early" will protect us from any fall out.
(q) the government is now making noises that it is unlikely to be able to negotiate a deal in two years - what do Brexiteers want to happen in April 2019 when we don't even have a bad deal?

I'm not even going to start on the nonsense of making EU nationals feel vilified and unwelcome when we desperately need them to keep our country afloat and who, besides, enrich our culture and, more cynically, our coffers. Above are 17 issues off the top of my head (I'm sure other Remainers could find dozens more) that I find hard to believe that anyone thinks should just be "sucked up" for intangible future rewards and false promises.

I would really, really appreciate an explanation of how these issues are going to be addressed beyond "calm down, dear" type rhetoric and flag waving. I have zero confidence in this government being able to achieve anything like a deal that would approach the benefits of staying in the EU and everything about its behaviour shrieks that it will be far, far worse. I absolutely agree with pps who have said that no sane government who felt itself to be in charge of the process would have rushed headlong into triggering A50 without examining all the options. This process is not about the good of the country, it is the most cynical example of party politics I can imagine and it makes me want to spit.

anonwhoeveryouare, we on Mumsnet discussion boards can say what we want and don't want, what we agree and disagree with, but judging from evidence in postings, none of us are in the Government.

The people in a position to implement any of your three options are the PM, the Ministers in charge of the process and their senior negotiators.

Which do you think they are going for?

BTW, we retain our right to express our opinion of the way they go about realising whichever option it is, and of the eventual results.

I'd mainly like the government to have a coherent and achievable objective, and a plan for getting there, because this would make it much easier for those of us who are directly affected to make plans (and for our employers to do so, where the single market is an integral part of their business model).

A trade deal in two years is not possible - something which remainers have known for months and the government admitted this week. So I'd like to know what the transitional agreement will look like, and how long it is expected to last.

And some sort of commitment to sorting out the rights of those of us relying of FoM rights would be extremely well received. It's nice to know that the EU is committed to putting this at the top of the agenda.

What do you want? When do you want it?

1. Transparency. A good start would be a full budget assessment of the administrative and legal costs of the negotiating process.

1. A frank and honest acknowledgement:

- that the NHS will not be getting any of the money that we were told it could get. (this needs to be spelt out because despite the rhetoric that 'no-one actually believed that slogan', clearly some people did)

• that we will still need immigration in order to function as a country, so that those who voted leave because they want immigrants to stop coming to the UK properly understand that this won't happen.

1. Strong, accountable leadership that is capable of steering the UK through the biggest change for decades.

• I'm not interested in TM's soundbites or any of the guff that BJ, DD et al are spouting. I want honest facts.

I want all of these right now.