Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?

[optionalrationale]

We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.

So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?

Here's what I want..

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.

Optional, does the behaviour of some of the French in WW2 (or the behaviour of some of the British in WW2 for that matter -fairly equivalent in terms of relative scale) exclude modern people being opportunistic or cowardly?

I am wondering about your obsession with the French in the 30s and 40s? You seem so keen to keep coming back to it, regardless of who raised it first.

It's always interesting to see an OP hijack their own thread with irrelevancies!

Brilliant James Meek once again shows how much more complicated and nuanced it all is, in this terrific new article about the closure of the Cadbury plant in somerdale and its move to Poland.
www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n08/james-meek/somerdale-to-skarbimierz

I hadn't mentioned World War II at all until, Remainers (in their infinite wisdom) decided to enlighten us that UK attitudes stemmed from not having our cities "reduced to rubble" during WW2. Clearly they couldn't give a shit for the East End, Coventry, Liverpool, Hull, Manchester I could go on.

Since then, Remainers themselves have gone on to "explain" that we (Great Britain) actually "started" WW2.

In my mind Kaija that is indeed a pretty big hole... and demonstrates the deeply rooted bias they have against the UK.

If you think these are now "irrelevancies" (after having been raised by your own side), it probably explains why Remain ran such an effective campaign.

optional

Its nothing to do with being a remainer

Its to do with studying history

And thats not just me...its my children and my leaver dad

But you keep going

I dont give a shit about how the conversation started

I haven't read the whole thread

But my statement is factually and technically correct

twofingerstoeverything
Irrelevancies?

"But we started the war with germany" - from RufusTheRenegadeReinedeer

Given the earlier debate (brought up by numerous Remainers - not me) about the impact of having been invaded and cities reduced to rubble (which according to Remainers didn't happen to the UK), do you think the recent history of the continent is irrelevant?

Here's a great slogan for your next RNMW campaign

"We have to stay, because we started WW2"... that is sure to be a winner.

i knew that before i voted as well

optional

Sorry as a complete aside

I hope everyone is having a lovely easter

"But we started the war with germany" - from RufusTheRenegadeReinedeer
Rufus, if you were a history professor that would sound sooooo good. at the Department of Renegade Studies, University of Reindeer etc.

I have no useful contribution to this bit about the war, but that you would even think it was OK or relevant to a debate about the economic and political consequences of Brexit to argue about a 'deeply rooted bias they have against the UK' seems odd at best and deeply concerning at the worst. option. It seems strange to think it's OK to write in these terms when discussing historical theories.

Who is the 'they'? and what does this 'deeply rooted bias' mean to you?

How is it relevant to negotiating in 2017 on the economic and political consequences of Brexit?

RUFUS!! I thought you might have flounced. So glad you're back.

YOU are the "factually and technically correct" voice of Remain.

Your words:
"But my statement is factually and technically correct" ("We started the war")

I am so glad you're a student of history. In that case, you should find it easy to answer theses questions. I posed some of these to you earlier.

1. As Germany only made one formal declaration of war during WW2, are your saying that they "technically and factually" didn't "start" any other part of WW2
2. Would the Poles agree with you? Germany invaded Poland without a formal declaration of war. Do you think the Poles would also say "Yeah but no but technically and factually it was them Brits wot started the actual war. Cos without them declaring war, there wouldn't have been any actual "war" technically, factually speakin"
3. Same question for Czechoslovakia (Germany invaded without declaring war)
4. Same question for the Netherlands (Germany invaded without declaring war)
5. Same question for Belgium (Germany invaded without declaring war)
6. Same question for Norway (Germany invaded without declaring war)
7. Same question for the USSR (Germany invaded without declaring war)

PS. If you were such an avid student of history, you would know that France declared war on Germany on exactly the same day as we did. So (according to your "technical and factual" grasp of history), WW2 was started by Britain and France.

Remainers think we started WWII and don't think UK cities suffered destruction in WWII? WTAF?
I voted Remain I know my fucking history and neither I nor anyone I know who also voted Remain believes such nonsense.
Tell me this part of the thread is a fucking joke!

Its easter sunday

Why would i have flounced?

I am not the voice of the remainers and at no point did i say that no one else declared war on Germany

But you seem to quite like making things up about people who on one day ticked a different box to you

I dont think all leavers speak with the same voice and i dont believe that remainers do either

I have no idea if the polish people think the same...maybe you should ask some

Hey woman

Anyway going back to enjoying my easter sunday

Its high tea and then games

Woman12345
Your words
"
I have no useful contribution to this bit about the war, but that you would even think it was OK or relevant to a debate about the economic and political consequences of Brexit to argue about a 'deeply rooted bias they have against the UK' seems odd at best and deeply concerning at the worst. option. It seems strange to think it's OK to write in these terms when discussing historical theories"

Erm, well that was about as clear as the whole of your Remain campaign.

Let me be crystal clear for you

The war (and its origins) was brought up in this thread by YOUR SIDE not me.

This turn of events in the thread came after a couple of days of Remainers discussing how the PM (and anyone else who disagrees with them) must be racist and think. Somebody (I believe it was Badders123) decided the whole attitude of the UK had its origins in our experience of WW2.

I merely responding to points raised by your side.

Sorry bring just seen your post

No not all remainers believe that the uk didnt suffer any destruction during world war 2,

Not all remainers believe that the uk started world war 2. I dont remember saying that though we did start the war with Germany . I did say the war though

optional seems to think that all remainers think the same

Anyway

Back to easter

Rufus
Come back when you get a fucking clue what you're talking about.

Aaah bless

Have a good easter all

Bringmesunshite
Just read the last few posts from RufustheRenegadeReindeer

Is that a prolonged flounce Rufus?

Its easter optional

Seriously i really have to go

Happy to pop back on tomorrow but i have family who want to eat their tea and play the game we promised

And i really must go...they already think i am on mumsnet much too much

Hey Rufus [ cake]?

Hey Optional.

Who is the 'they'? and what does this 'deeply rooted bias' mean to you?

How is it relevant to negotiating in 2017 on the economic and political consequences of Brexit?

For those coming late to the debate, here is a remain view that first brought up our role in WW2. I had not raised this at all but am finding some of the entrenched views of Remainers very enlightening.

Here are the actual words that took the thread down this path.

"Badders123

A poster (sorry I'm very tired and I can't remember who it was!) made the point that the UK was not invaded in WW2 and was not reduced to rubble like any parts of mainland Europe"

I would be encouraged if other Remainers could call bullshit on this crap