Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?

[optionalrationale]

We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.

So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?

Here's what I want..

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.

My point is that, I agree with others when they say that SOME British attitudes are different towards Europe from those on the continent because of our different experience.

"We sent the flower of our youth to defend France, Poland, the Netherlands Belgium, Norway and numerous countries around the world when we could have remained aloof and isolationist."

The flower of their youth also fought in these wars, portraying it like it was our efforts alone is incorrect. We also weren't isolationist, empire, league of nations and all, revisionism of the highest order there.

Did I say we had it easy? No. Do I think that its a fluke of geography that we weren't occupied? Yes.

" And yet, Remainers here still believe we (Great Britain) "started" or now "initiated" WW2."

No that has not been said at all, its also been frequently challenged, yet you repeat it, is that a tactic, repeat lies so that people start to believe them.

However it is fairly obvious that WW2 wouldn't have happened if the British and French hadn't insisted on reparations and other sanctions on Germany at the end of WW1.

What the fuck does that mean?

Pretty much what it says. They're all pretty straightforward words.

For example, why did you respond to a criticism of Gisela Stuart with a lengthy post excoriating French behaviour in 1940-44? It's not the only time you've responded to something with a 'BUT THE FRENCH' post including some posts which would have gone down terribly well in a student revue circa 1972. I'm wondering why?

On my second paragraph (since both seem to give you pause) - just pointing out that by responding to reasonable posts suggesting out that the mainland European mentality and attitude to the EU and its mission of unity may differ from that of mainland U.K. because of the relatively recent experience of invasion and occupation, by honing in solely on the experience of being bombed, rather than reflecting the context in which individual statements were made, is a little less than debating in good faith - as I've pointed out in previous examples of your tendency to do this.

Hope that helps!

Fair enough optional

Couldnt figure out what you meant by Remainers here still believe we (Great Britain) "started" or now "initiated" WW2

It sounded like the initiated bit was new

Fuck me. Talk about the "trur colours" of the Remain campaign.
Danny, your words
"However it is fairly obvious that WW2 wouldn't have happened if the British and French hadn't insisted on reparations and other sanctions on Germany at the end of WW1."

So you blame not only the British but also now the French for the antisemitic tyrant that was Hitler.

Do you work for one of the German banks by any chance? Or BMW?

I will absolutely hold my hand up to saying that by declaring war on germany we 'started' the war with germany

Other countries also did that and thats why it turned in to a world war instead of just a war between a few countries

I still think thats true

But optimal keeps saying that people have said stuff that they haven't

I blame the actions of the allied powers for the rise of Hitler, yes, its pretty much a given that the instance of the French and British of reparations and harsh conditions placed on Germany led to the rise of more extreme politics at both ends of the political strata.

I thought you were keen on history ?

JassyRadlett
Your words
"In my second paragraph (since both seem to give you pause) - just pointing out that by responding to reasonable posts suggesting out that the mainland European mentality and attitude to the EU and its mission of unity may differ from that of mainland U.K. because of the relatively recent experience of invasion and occupation, by honing in solely on the experience of being bombed, rather than reflecting the context in which individual statements were made, is a little less than debating in good faith - as I've pointed out in previous examples of your tendency to do this."

Well thanks for clearing that up, pet

Fuck me. Talk about the "trur colours" of the Remain campaign.

You seem angry optionalrationale

The war is over.

There are many different interpretations of history.

What aspects of Brexit Britain are you pleased with?

Optional, is this seriously the first time you've heard it suggested that there might be links between Versailles and the rise of Nazism and fascism in 1920s Germany?

Worth looking and cause and effect in history. Not in the interests of apportioning blame (Britain and France's position at Versailles was understandable in light of the devastation wrought by German expansionism) but in trying to avoid such errors in the future (such as were avoided in Potsdam and afterwards, though other errors were of course made).

Well thanks for clearing that up, pet

Always happy to help, dear.

And its not the true colours of the remain campaign for goodness sake

I was taught this stuff years ago

Before there was even the vaguest hint of a referendum

Its fine to disagree with people but not fine to label millions of people with a the views of a few

I thought leavers didnt like that

I was taught this stuff years ago

I was taught it years ago in a non-European country, it that helps.

Yeah woman is right optimal

Lets get back to your thread

I was a very reluctant remainer as you were

Was there anything in particular that made you come down on the side of leave or just an overall thing?

Rufus
Your words
"But optimal keeps saying that people have said stuff that they haven't"

I am assuming you meant Optional rather than Optimal. Can you please share an example? Whenever I have quoted you, I use copy / paste. Please do the same to demonstrate where I "keep saying that people have said stuff that they haven't"

Today 21:28 RufusTheRenegadeReindeer

"I will absolutely hold my hand up to saying that by declaring war on germany we 'started' the war with germany"

You are a GIFT to the Remain campaign Rufus, I am sure that all other Remainers are delighted you rejoined this thread

Yes, pesky facts like who declared war on whom.

Ignoring all the posts saying that it wasn't necessarily a bad thing - in my view absolutely necessary and right, and arguably a little late (but could not resonantly have been any later).

Why do you feel such shame in acknowledging that Britain stood up for its allies and stood up for right by declaring war on an increasingly expansionist Germany?

Theories over who started the war with germany and why it was started have nothing to do with the remain campaign

I dont know why you are saying it does

It appears that you don't understand basic points, if Britain declared war on Germany, not the other way around, officially Britain started the war.

Semantics dear, semantics.

You're a gift to the remain side too you know!

I openly admit that my knowledge of WW2 is not great and it's one of my resolutions to put that right but I am so impressed by those of you that are so knowledgeable. I have found the discussion interesting and enlightening but can I suggest that we stop feeding optional who is clearly just up for a fight and stick to discussing Brexit? I know that threads often evolve into something different from how they started which is fine but I feel like he/she is latching onto this diversion like a dog with a bone to distract from the clusterfuck that is Brexit which was the question he/she originally asked.

jassy

Completely agree Britain did the right thing

I think optionals question was a good one mrshoolie

Do you have any opinions on it

I havent read the entire thread as i am not very well informed following the referendum so if you have already said I apologise

I agree with this bit from the initial question

I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU.

JassyRadlett
Your words "I was taught this stuff years ago. I was taught it years ago in a non-European country, it that helps"

Exactly what were you taught on this topic? Where?

It is a clusterfuck, I'll agree on that.

May making her first trade deal after a50 with Erdagon, is gruesome. I am appalled that that referendum seems to have been called for yes, seems very dodgy.

That she's allied us so closely with Trump, who is doing what he is in NK and Syria is also a very dangerous and idiotic side show to distract from his own Russian links and tax misdemeanours.

Brexit has green lit French fascists and Le Pen.

And May is operating in effectively a one party state, with no opposition.

On our own turf right now:
petrol's going up almost daily; food and household goods are ticking up;
deportations are still happening and being threatened; we're losing status as science and banking hub; jobs have gone.

Bread and butter issues are happening right here right now.

And in NI, despite the very best efforts of both sides to forge peacefully on despite horrendous war, the GFI is under threat and the ROI can't and shouldn't be relied on to pick up the pieces in a UI.

I know you all know this, but I needed to get it down, sorry.

It is a fine pickle, and it's happening now.

Of any of the above, how do you see any of it playing out optionrationale to Brexit Britain's benefit?

Its practically general knowledge optional, its a wonder you've never heard of it before. Almost any teaching of twentieth century history deals with it.

It was even predicted at the time in a cartoon.

ashweetha.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/treaty-of-versailles-cartoon-analysis-3/