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Brexit

Westministers: The Lords Strike Back

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/03/2017 19:41

This needs no fanfare or lengthy post. Just this:

The Lords are demanding amendments unilateral protection for EU citizens.

Labour was split 358 for an amendment to 256 against.

This is after Amber Rudd had tried to reassure the Lords by writing a letter assuring peers that EU citizens would be treated with the utmost respect.

Utmost respect = an amendment to guarantee unilateral support.

Today is a good day. It should have been done in the first place.

OP posts:
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5
comfortandjoyce · 07/03/2017 00:00

Which is why they wanted to join with their neighbours in order to avoid those political forces ever asserting themselves again. We don't even acknowledge they ever did......

Those forces didn't take us then, even though they set the rest of the world on fire, and they won't take us now. That's where Britain's sense of exceptionalism comes from. It's a romantic idea, but also based on hard historical experience.

prettybird · 07/03/2017 00:02

So Amritsar doesn't count because they had brown skins and was a hemisphere away? Hmm

And internment was a figment of the Troubles' imagination? Hmm

And the Black and Tans were friendly neighbourhood bobbies, who just happened to like a fire or two? Hmm

And the Boer Concentration Camps were just misunderstood holiday camps? Hmm

All taking place in our glorious Empire.

....just off the top of my head

comfortandjoyce · 07/03/2017 00:12

So Amritsar doesn't count because they had brown skins and was a hemisphere away? hmm

And internment was a figment of the Troubles' imagination? hmm

And the Black and Tans were friendly neighbourhood bobbies, who just happened to like a fire or two? hmm

And the Boer Concentration Camps were just misunderstood holiday camps? hmm

All taking place in our glorious Empire.

....just off the top of my head

Yes, those all count. But none of them adds up to even 1% of what either the Nazis or the Soviets did in the countries of the future EU, or 1% of the good the UK did in liberating Europe. Bad luck with the self-flagellating moral equivalence.

Kaija · 07/03/2017 00:22

Are we back on the "Britain beat the Hun so we'll be fine outside the EU" argument for Leave again?

It's not getting any better is it?

comfortandjoyce · 07/03/2017 00:31

Are we back on the "Britain beat the Hun so we'll be fine outside the EU" argument for Leave again?

More like "Britain resisted dictatorship when the whole rest of Europe fell victim to it", but thanks for the tedious oversimplification.

Oh, and we did beat the Hun. Twice. HTH.

Kaija · 07/03/2017 00:34

You sound upset.

SummerLightning · 07/03/2017 00:39

This thread has gone downhill.

To go back, I very much enjoyed Lionel Shriver's The Mandibles too.

I have my fingers crossed Brexit won't be that bad though Shock

whatwouldrondo · 07/03/2017 00:51

Comfort

An estimated 25m dead in famines in India between 1870 and 1900 during which the British consistently failed to provide any response, still shipped grain overseas and operated labour camps

Of 120000 held in appalling conditions in the concentration camps of the Boer War 10% of the Boer population died, and a precedent was set.

A further 100k + as a result of the Mau Mau rebellions in Kenya, the latter the worse for being the result of the UK trying to hold on to power in the face of independence movements in order to support the post war economy In the U.K.

The desecration of the Summer Palace in China, many of the items looted are now in the British Museum or Metroplitan Museum of Art.

I could go on

All this amounts to 1% of what happened in Europe ? Only if you think what happens to white people and white civilisation accounts for more......

mathanxiety · 07/03/2017 04:12

Comfort
Actually, the US beat The Hun twice, and the Soviet Union beat them once. And while Britain was busy defeating The Hun the second time around, the US beat the British Empire, fulfilling FDR's dearest wish.

We even got rid of that Empire of ours (eventually). So our 20th century history is only about a million times better than that of most of our EU neighbours.
The 20th Century history of Britain is only an improvement over the previous several and comparable to the imperial history of other states if you turn a blind eye to events prior to 1925ish in Ireland, the Boer War, events up to 1947 in Palestine/Israel, events associated with the Indian Empire including the gross mismanagement of the independence and partition of India and Pakistan that resulted in millions displaced and dead, the conduct of Britain in Africa as African states fought for independence, support of the moral cesspit that was Apartheid South Africa, and the entire progress of a thirty odd year period of hell in Northern Ireland that was preceded by the turning of a blind eye to decades of a form of apartheid within Northern Ireland that resulted in Civil Rights marches in the province in the late 60s, part of a campaign for civil rights that was necessary because almost half of the population had been systematically denied civil rights since the 1920s. This was within the United Kingdom.

Britain didn't 'get rid of' its Empire. The Empire was taken back by its rightful owners.

You really should not rely on Ladybird books for your historical knowledge.

BigChoc
In NI, over-agressive tactics didn't beat the IRA into submission; they massively increased IRA support and escalated the conflict:
Yes indeed, and if successive governments had gone further they might have beaten the Provos into submission. As things stood, they did what the British always did as soon as they encountered serious opposition to colonial rule (i.e. during the entire 20th century); they fought but only up to a point and therefore lost. The lesson of the previous war in Ireland was not lost on the Provos - escalate and the British will come to the table. The very existence of NI came about due to Britain's refusal to stand up to threats made by the Unionist lobby, prominent among which were high ranking army officers and members of the Tory establishment. Take a look at the Curragh Mutiny if you want an example of Britain bumbling through politics and war, accommodating behaviour that came very close to treason on the part of high ranking officers instead of doing what was necessary and salutary. This sorry episode was very instructive for everyone except Britain.

The lesson Russia is teaching ISIS and any group with its sights on Russia right now is 'we will not back down and we will do whatever is necessary to win'. And this is a reasonable message to send to terrorists, because the alternative is to let them have their way, conquer enormous territories, commit genocide, ruin everything in their path, and threaten all of their neighbours. It has to be one winner or the other in the war against ISIS. There is no middle ground.

Slippery - wrt what you call demonising their elected government - is that not a big part of enjoying life in a political entity that is 'as free as it gets', or something like that...

mathanxiety · 07/03/2017 04:42

An American friend told me that it's well known the "edges" of America are the most free thinking and well read

Oi, don't forget it was Chicago and the Illinois state legislature that gave Barack Obama his start, Chicago political operatives that ran his presidential campaign, and Chicago public schools that educated Michelle Obama.

California otoh gave the world Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan. Out of 20 governors in the years since 1900, only 5 have been Democrats (though one of the Republicans was Earl Warren).

mathanxiety · 07/03/2017 04:47

Comfort
But none of them adds up to even 1% of what either the Nazis or the Soviets did in the countries of the future EU, or 1% of the good the UK did in liberating Europe.

I suspect the British Empire headcount might be worse. I think if you factor in death from famine, and the devastation of forced emigration, including the highland clearances and the Irish famine and the Indian famines, and all the death and devastation associated with slavery in the Caribbean and the American colonies and the exploitation of Africa, I suspect the British toll far exceeded that of the Nazis and possibly that of Stalin too.

As with the Indian famines, Ireland exported food in the 1840s.

Mistigri · 07/03/2017 06:33

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HashiAsLarry · 07/03/2017 06:34

If nothing else at least this rather proves the point about not having a grip of our colonial history Grin

Mistigri · 07/03/2017 06:40

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missmoon · 07/03/2017 06:46

I find the multiple attempts to derail this thread interesting, why now? Back to Brexit and A50, this is very interesting, on the game theory of A50 and a "meaningful" vote in parliament:
medium.com/@helenldecruz/burning-their-bridges-a-risky-brexit-negotiating-strategy-987863e65d13#.vz4y7k9x1

HashiAsLarry · 07/03/2017 06:48

If I get some time later I'll happily trawl through the thread. We've has some fine examples on here,

Racist against your own nation
Takes half a statement and twists to own agenda
Our poor colonial cousins
I'm only now worried about British ex pats
Dissent against the government

Off the top of my head
Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 07/03/2017 06:54

Upthread, red asked one of us to start the new thread.
I can do that in a few mins, unless anyone else wishes to ?

HashiAsLarry · 07/03/2017 06:56

Go bigchoc. I was going to cheekily nominate you as you have the writing skills. Way above me anywayFlowers

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 07/03/2017 07:02

"Not all of us who voted Leave are racists"

No one on these threads ever said you were. I find this a very handy indication of when to ignore the rest of someone's posts, as it shows they haven't read the threads properly.

Another one is "echo chamber". It is true that those with Remain leanings tend to get more of a hearing here, but the reason for this is not because they are Remain. The reason is that the posters who command the most respect are those who set out their arguments with a combination of logic and evidence.

There are a few examples of Leave posts that have done this, and they've been very interesting, informative and valued. I said in my first post here I would like to see more, but for some reason it tends to be the same set of slogans on a loop.

I fear it is impossible to have a proper discussion about Brexit on the net.

Slipperyknickers · 07/03/2017 07:13

"Not all of us who voted Leave are racists"

No one on these threads ever said you were.

Actually yes they did.

Motheroffourdragons · 07/03/2017 07:14

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This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Mistigri · 07/03/2017 07:19

I find the multiple attempts to derail this thread interesting, why now?

Prob the HoL amendments, esp the one which would result in the status quo being maintained if negotiations break down or the deal is rejected by parliament. Allowing a vote on brexit after everyone has realised how shit it is is an existential threat to the project; it's the reason why Miller was fought so expensively and fruitlessly.

Our friend with the twisted knickers was posting on this and the other (EU citizens) thread for about 10 hours straight yesterday. Someone somewhere is seriously worried.

Badders123 · 07/03/2017 07:20

War dead?

My great uncles died in WW1

My children's great grandfather died in WW2

Am I allowed to have a view now??????

Also....on the subject of British empire atrocities - the Irish famine??? Millions dead.

One can mourn the dead whilst doubting the veracity of what and who they fought for (Iraq?)

Slipperyknickers · 07/03/2017 07:22

Bye,

Please go ahead filling these threads with you anti british sentiment/propoganda.

Leaving the EU has fuck all to do with the Empire... You are incredibly screwed up if you think it does.

Many of you have personal issues with the UK are not british.

Your excitement surrounding anything which will be negative for the uk is very unproductive and pretty sick if you like to call the uk home.

Carry on shitting on your own doorstep if you like.

Badders123 · 07/03/2017 07:22

Not all of us who voted Leave are racists"

No

But all racists voted leave

Interesting re trolling...I did wonder!!

I see this morning no 10 is dismissing WHs call for a GE

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