Westministers: The Lords Strike Back

[RedToothBrush]

This needs no fanfare or lengthy post. Just this:

The Lords are demanding amendments unilateral protection for EU citizens.

Labour was split 358 for an amendment to 256 against.

This is after Amber Rudd had tried to reassure the Lords by writing a letter assuring peers that EU citizens would be treated with the utmost respect.

Utmost respect = an amendment to guarantee unilateral support.

Today is a good day. It should have been done in the first place.

Nope but there is this

Foster is becoming the Corbyn of NI politics. No doubt she will soon start muttering about standing firm against a coup. I wish to God she would go. If she doesn't - and SF has made it clear that her removal is a red line - I fear direct rule again.

Re the empire, have a look at that article
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-government-africa-free-trade-zone-post-brexit-empire-2-liam-fox-international-commonwealth-a7613526.html

It seems that some members of the government Are talking about that too....

I fear direct rule again.
Until vote for re unification with the south. lalalonglegs Looks like May will have two independence referenda on her hands.

At least England must be providing a good comedy turn in India and Africa. They must be having a really good laugh at that one *RedAndYellowPeppers

India was the UK’s 13th largest goods and services export market and 12th largest import market in 2014, India accounted for 1.7% of the UK’s total exports, and 1.9% of total imports.

She's going to need more than scary eyes and leather trousers to get more business from a country England destroyed.

‘Fortress Europe’ to photograph and fingerprint British travellers after Brexit
Non-EU travellers to Europe face a raft of new security measures.

www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/passports-eu-us-visas-esta-etias-ees-fingerprints-passports-european-parliament-a7614881.html

We are being realistic
Disloyal is closing your eyes and going "lalala" when the country is at risk of economic chaos.

Brexit is likely to range from bad to disastrous, unless the govt see sense and go for an EEA/EFTA deal, at least as a transition period.

The worst disaster would be a "disorderly" Brexit, i.e. no trade arrangement with the EU within time for all the E27 to vote on it.
That is likely to happen if the UK govt overestimates its power wrt the EU and also how much it can compensate for trade with its wealthy neighbours by increasing trade with distant developng countries.

All sides would suffer without a deal, but the EU can compensate for losing 8% of its exports far more easily than the UK can for 44% of its exports.

There would be a gap between Brexit and any new trade deals with non-EU countries
Trade deals normally take at least 5 years and other countries will only get into serious trade negotiations after Brexit terms have been agreed and signed off by the UK and the E27.

As posted upthread, any country with a grudge - Argentina, India, Kenya ... - could block the UK from a WTO deal, unknown for how long.

Disloyal???

To whom??!

I have never sworn allegiance to the queen and never will (I am a republican)

I did not vote for the current govt and had no say on who the PCP elected as leader

I wish to remain in the EU

How - exactly - am I being "disloyal"?

I am making plans for the future for my family

I refuse to "hope for the best" or "be optimistic" about brexit when EVERY single price of evidence I've seen points to it being an utter disaster

TM will be ok. As will the rest of her cabinet. And the rabid bunch who run the right wing media (Murdoch et al)

It's us plebs that will suffer

My dc and I have dual citizenship. So my children will still be able to travel freely and study abroad if they wish.

Leaver tossers who yearn for a return to the 1950s aren't going to take that from them.

Not everyone is a fan of TMs plans it seems

ind.pn/2lxdHKE

Slippery Unlike you, I suspect, I actually have been out in the world talking to those potential customers that are in parts of the world where the UK executed its colonial project, and where there is now not just growth but enormous potential. (By the by I am regularly at the receiving end of what you might regard as racial slurs - try literally Foreign devil / white ghost - but being white and privileged, and from a developed, and one of the ten largest, economies for now it does not translate into anything like the discrimination that it did for Big Choc () so I, and indeed the rest of the colonisers, can afford to take it in good humour.) It is not just the perception of a sense of British entitlement that I have to contend with. It is also the way that plays out in the policies of the current government. It isn't just immigration though that is a major issue that crops up all the time in former colonies. It is also the appallingly short sighted development policies we have seen from Pritti Patel, that actually with it's "conservative values" fails to capitalise on the actual links of soft power (leaders educated in the UK etc.) we have with economies that have huge potential. Of course there will be no soft power in future either given the damage we have already done to the brand of our universities overseas.

We can argue until the cows come home about the likelihood that our sources of competition in global markets will be damaged in the upcoming negotiations, though the banks, universities and scientific community are not given to irrationality and they judge it likely. However even if the EU decide to cave in on their principles and magnanimously deliver everything we want and don't poach our competitive advantage we are still pissing off the rest of the world.

Immanuel Kant (18th century German philosopher) :

"I had therefore to remove knowledge, in order to make room for belief"

How Many rabid leavers actually are well
Travelled? Or have experience in import/export?

Every time I boggle at trumps election win
I remind myself that only 25% of Americans have passports

Hard to be well rounded (whether left
Wing) if one has never even seen another culture...

Hard to be well rounded (whether left
Wing) if one has never even seen another culture...

which might well explain why areas of the UK with little immigration voted leave.

I think a lot of leavers think the UK is
Still looked to and admired as
A global power.

Those days are long gone post ref

I've travelled Extensively around Europe and have dual citizenship of an EU member nation

The UK is seen as trading on past glories - of you can call the empire and its atrocities glorious - rather like a faded film star....past its best and not even aware of it

BCF but Kant's foreign.
Badders Looks like May's heading toward Trump poll tumbles for Brexit.

Ghost...quite

The bafflement on the faces of the people of my county when it's pointed out we have almost zero immigration....

Sorry that should have read
whether left wing or right wing

The bafflement on the faces of the people of my county when it's pointed out we have almost zero immigration....

power of the gutter press and yet some people think they make informed decisions in a vacuum.

...also a very elderly population in my county too

Fuckers

They have enjoyed decades of free NHS, free University for some! Job security, final
Salary pensions....

They have sold us up the river and we are
Supposed to just roll over and say "ok just go ahead!"??

FUCK THAT

I will protest, write letters, raise money...the ignorant must be held to account for their ignorance

^ sound of moronic sheep 🐑

which might well explain why areas of the UK with little immigration voted leave.
I am sadly related to a few rabid leavers who are extensively travelled, some have even worked abroad, but they always live in little bubbles of tourism or working communities whilst out there. They live in low immigration areas and have little idea of other culture. I'm not sure its travelling that's the issue, rather than the lack of will to learn or integrate.

I think you are making major assumptions about many brexit voters, which are not founded.

An American friend told me that it's well known the "edges" of America are the most free thinking and well read

The rest...not so much!

My dh travels in the southern states quite a bit

I'm always 😳 at his stories of redneck fuckwittery 🙄

I'm not sure that the UK is entirely seen as trading on past glories, Badders. Like you, I've travelled a lot and have dual nationality, I know a lot of people who admire - perhaps I should say admired - the British sense of pragmatism, the rule of law here, our willingness to get things done in a sensible and expedient way among other things. Perhaps those qualities were exaggerated in the first place but the referendum has pretty much destroyed the perception overseas of the British having common sense.

No?
In what way unfounded?
Race hate and anti Semitic attacks are rising massively since the ref
There are NO plans for brexit
The leave campaign was based on lies and right wing propaganda

Good for you if you if you got the result you wanted!

But just remember with whom you shared a platform...farage, le penn, putin, trump....

"I'm not racist!!" Leavers bleat
"I just happen to share the views of rabidly right wing racist bigots. It's a total coincidence!!"

^ that excuse ain't gonna fly in the future

Yes I also know a lot of brexit voting types flying around from one air conditioned office to another. I admit that there does seem to be a lot of brexit spirit in the business bubble traveler category. (particularly those who have done a lot of business outside of Europe)
I have heard that poor education contributed to brexit.... not in the people I know.