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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Peregrina · 23/02/2017 15:21

Misti - I wasn't criticising the BMA - sadly, I think it could easily come to pass.

I was criticising those Leavers who are adamant that absolutely nothing has changed and that we all want a Hard Brexit, and then base it on a small sample.

Mistigri · 23/02/2017 15:25

peregrina I was supporting your point not disagreeing with it ;)

Nick Cohn in the Spectator, on Boris:

I accept I may have been wrong. Boris Johnson may not be a lying opportunist but an authentic idiot. Grin

(The two are not mutually exclusive, of course).

LurkingHusband · 23/02/2017 15:28

There's more

Paris has ramped up efforts to lure jobs from London as Europe’s leading business hub post-Brexit after announcing a huge investment in its main business district, La Défense.

The French capital hasn’t constructed any buildings that are taller than 100m for more than 40 years, but in a bid to attract financial firms it will now build seven new skyscrapers in La Défense by 2021.

The towers will create 375,000 sq m of new office space as well as new restaurants and co-working areas, Defacto, the organisation which is promoting the development, said on Wednesday.

(contd)

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2017 15:31

I've been wanting all morning to say that someone needs to do something quite radically different in this country.

I see Banks got there before me today.

2020 manifestos could get interesting. Get your thinking caps on for radical for other parties...

OP posts:
woman12345 · 23/02/2017 15:41

HOL showing the way in how to do cross party action.

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2017 16:26

View about Copeland from a pollster:

Opinium Research @OpiniumResearch
Polling in the North West suggests there is a swing to the Conservatives, but not quite enough to take #Copeland.

opinium.co.uk/what-to-look-out-for-in-copeland/
Copeland: Tory victory possible but not probable

OP posts:
Kaija · 23/02/2017 16:45

What has Banks done today?

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2017 16:46

And one from Democratic Dashboard
Democratic Audit UK @democraticaudit
Governments don't win new seats at by-elections. Usually

democraticdashboard.com/blog/entry/stoke-on-trent-and-copeland-crucibles-of-the-new-political-landscape
Stoke-on-Trent and Copeland: crucibles of the new political landscape
All the latest from Democratic Dashboard

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missmoon · 23/02/2017 16:55

This is an interesting live blog (labour perspective) on the by-elections: www.writeyou.co.uk/stoke_and_copeland_live_blog

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2017 17:03

Tonight's QT from Stoke.

Justine Greening CON
Angela Rayner LAB
DouglasCarswell UKIP
Isabel Oakeshott Daily Fail
Peter Coates Stoke City Chairman

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/bbc-question-time-audience-application-process_uk_58aec9c2e4b057efdce946cc?
BBC Question Time Audience Application Process More Stringent Than You Might Expect
For everyone who has ever thought ‘where do they find them?!’

OP posts:
Badders123 · 23/02/2017 17:13

Well
There's a real smorgasbord of political mediocrity

GhostofFrankGrimes · 23/02/2017 17:19

Vauxhall job fears rise as Peugeot boss mentions 'speedy' savings

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/23/vauxhall-job-peugeot-psa-gm-opel

LurkingHusband · 23/02/2017 17:24

Vauxhall job fears rise as Peugeot boss mentions 'speedy' savings

I liked the first line:

The boss of PSA Group said the French carmaker’s proposed purchase of General Motors’ lossmaking European business could bring “speedy” savings, prompting fresh fears over job cuts at Vauxhall in the UK – just hours after speaking to Theresa May.

sort of unsubtle deux doigts to TM ...

Cailleach1 · 23/02/2017 17:34

oh God, Oakshott, Carswell and Greening. There is always a preponderance of these types on any panel now.

Caveat: I don't really know Greening, but just know she will be defending the mantra that everyone has to repeat like zombies. The will of the people. The entire 100% British people really meant anything the Conservative party want to do is what they wanted too.

RedAndYellowStripe · 23/02/2017 17:35

French car makers re quite used to deal with the french government telling them they can't make people redundant and interfering massively in how they are running their business. I can't see them being worried about TM who wouldn't dare making any such comment publicly.

RedAndYellowStripe · 23/02/2017 17:37

HOL showing the way in how to do cross party action.
The more it goes, the more I really like the HoL and their down to earth approach to things. In this day and age, it's really refreshing.

Cailleach1 · 23/02/2017 17:40

Last week from Glasgow was quite a relief on QT. It was different from the show from England. People were discussing things, rather than the usual soundbite laden show.

CarelessWispas · 23/02/2017 17:45

oh God, Oakshott, Carswell and Greening. There is always a preponderance of these types on any panel now.

Welcome to the land of "learned opinions".
Welcome to dumb-down Britain.

lalalonglegs · 23/02/2017 17:45

Hmm, Private Eye reported this week that Isabel Oakeshott has just resigned from the Mail; Arron Banks is making noises about launching a new party/movement... I smell a spin doctor job in the making Wink.

Cailleach1 · 23/02/2017 17:45

Johnson has quite a few lies in his past though. One can't really look at him without knowing he is quite happy to tell lies for his own benefit or to save his own skin.

He lost jobs in the past when his mendacity was found out. A proven outright liar. But he is in the right cabinet now and among his peers on the referendum campaign.

Cailleach1 · 23/02/2017 17:47

Jeez, Oakshott is already on the TV as much anyway as any elected politician.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/02/2017 17:48

Vauxhall has been kept going by General Motors because it sells well in the UK market, mostly thanks to a form of patriotism, and its factories in Luton and Ellsemere Port in Wales are efficient and cost-effective."

"That will change dramatically in the coming years are Brexit bites into exchange rates and the UK, potentially, lapses into WTO tariffs on imports and exports.
"At a stroke that would make Vauxhall’s UK operations uneconomical and Opel-Vauxhall’s 4,500 UK employees would be directly at risk."

"One cannot see a French car maker, 14 per cent owned by the French government, stepping in to save the prospects of a post-Brexit car brand that has no relevance in Europe or the rest of the world.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/psa-and-opel-who-wins-who-loses-1.2976353

Remember, it is already MUCH easier to fire workers in the uk and cheaper to make them redundant than it is in Germany or France.

Also, Merkel & the local state politicians really stand up to big business that threatens jobs in Germany and there is a very powerful auto workers union.

  • in contrast, May & the Tory rightwing believe business interests should come before workers and most UK unions have been beaten into impotence.

PSA has promised not to make any workers at Germany's four GM-Opel plants redundant

boredofbrexit · 23/02/2017 17:57

Banks, Oakeshott and.......Milo?Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 23/02/2017 18:01

woman I'm cheered by your report that the grownups in France are uniting to defeat fascists
< But we don't want that grown-up foreign muck here ....>

BigChocFrenzy · 23/02/2017 18:18

I foyu are staying up for the byelection results, red (or your toddler keeps you awake) you may genuinely be seeing history:

In that ncpolitics link, it's 138 years a govt gained a byelection seat from the main opposition, without any oddbods being involved:

https://www.ncpolitics.uk/2017/02/copeland-turning-blue-would-be-more-historic-than-you-think.html/

"The last time a governing party gained a seat in a by-election by overturning a principal opposition party majority of more than 3 per cent, without a defecting incumbent, a disqualified winner or a material change in the set of parties contesting the seat, was when John Derby Allcroft took Worcester for the Tories on 28th Mar 1878"

So, we may be treated to the spectacle of Corbyn resigning, or May & the 3 Brexiteers dancing naked in celebration on the HoC benches Shock
< please God it is the former ! Shock >