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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

OP posts:
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RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 23/02/2017 12:31

Cross post bored

boredofbrexit · 23/02/2017 12:32

Well, if it satisfies the pedants I am happy to substitute 'informed' for learned, although I am sure you all could interpret what was being said. Even when a leave voter was saying it, hey GG?

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 23/02/2017 12:34

I am not sure they are informed either

I have watched The thick of it too many times Sad

CarelessWispas · 23/02/2017 12:34

Whether that's to do with their own comparative education level or a simply a greater propensity to trust I don't know.

  1. Comparative education, yes I agree, also possibly:
  2. Wanting to avoid responsibility for consequences of choices made without understanding and evaluating fundamental issues
  3. Attachment to concept of "winning" without comprehending impacts at execution level
  4. Embarrassment and denial at having been conned (internet scam syndrome) so easier to keep going in blind faith but against all reason

Just guessing. I'm sure there are more.

whatwouldrondo · 23/02/2017 12:34

Business tends to look forward and thus will find a way. Yes we do, and that means that we have contingency planning in place in the event that the UK does go for the no deal option. Much of that planning, both in the business and academic communities, involves moving activities and people, including DH and I, overseas.

unicornsIlovethem · 23/02/2017 12:36

learned in court is used either as a meaningless term of civility, or as a patronising insult as in "as my learned friend is surely aware"

I wonder which sense it is meant to be here.

whatwouldrondo · 23/02/2017 12:37

Informed only in as far as they are prepared to listen. It has been very clear that May only listens to those saying what she wants to hear......... Otherwise a hard stare serves as substitute for actual discussion and debate.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 23/02/2017 12:48

Absolutely what

We are all guilty of looking for and finding evidence of our own views

Politicians are just as bad, except they can request that evidence

BigChocFrenzy · 23/02/2017 12:48

David Davies after the first few months said that Brexit was far more complicated than he realised.

Some prominent Leave campaigners, who are indeed well-informed, are furious that the govt is moving towards a hard Brexit, outisde the Single Market, or even worse, a disorderly one

However, behind dim Davies, it ooks like the Tory rightwing - Fox, IDS & co - are using Brexit to fulfill their dream of a low-tax, low-regulation, low-wage (for the pleb 90%) economy
Those who are wealthy or with secure high income - Bored ? -with private health insurance will do well with this Brexit

Those who are low income, depending on benefits on topups, the nhs, welfare services .... will be screwed under this dream

The are many possible forms of Brexit
The govt currently is choosing the Brexit favoured by their rightwing, which will be paid for by the poorer half of the population

woman12345 · 23/02/2017 12:59

"Never give idiots a choice unless you know what you'll do with the answer". Ancient proverb

Peregrina · 23/02/2017 13:01

.there was nothing on the ballot about the type of exit, except that we would leave the EU which most would take to mean all associated bodies.

You might personally, and the Tory UKippers might, but whether that 'most' translates to the other 17 million is very debatable.

The elected government will execute this in a way that in their learned opinion- which Id be so bold to say far outstrips that of we randoms on t'internet.
All you can say about the majority of the Government is that their educations were expensive. It seems to have made them neither learned nor intellectual.

boredofbrexit · 23/02/2017 13:03

Yep, tea party idea has no legs.

CarelessWispas · 23/02/2017 13:14

Those who are wealthy or with secure high income - Bored ? -with private health insurance will do well with this Brexit

Also helpful if they:

  1. are cool with their kids not getting any state pension before age 70 as per recent report Oxford uni on brexit impact;
  2. happy to pay for kids' / grandkids' private education as state school budgets cut dramatically further;
  3. have kids with dual EU/UK citizenship so won't have their rights to be educated, live and work abroad removed;
  4. have ample financial assets denominated in non-GBP;
  5. not too attached to open tolerant society etc.

There are certainly winners, but not too many British citizens who reside in this country.

Cailleach1 · 23/02/2017 13:25

I have to laugh at the headlines in the Guardian.

They say that brexit will really help with a trade deal with India.

Between the EU and India, that is. It states "Leaked document suggests Indian tariffs on scotch and Theresa May’s visa rules for skilled Indians had been impeding progress".

twofingerstoEverything · 23/02/2017 13:41

The elected government will execute this in a way that in their learned opinion- which Id be so bold to say far outstrips that of we randoms on t'internet.

Learned opinion? But I thought we were against experts and were all about 'the will of the people' now.

Cailleach1 · 23/02/2017 13:46

The gov't don't always feel compelled to comply with the will of the people. What about Boaty McBoatface being turned into Sir David Attenborough despite popularity of Boaty McBoatface?

Just to say I'm laughing at the irony of that headline. Not anything else.

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2017 13:54

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ukips-paul-nuttall-andrew-marr-show-stoke-central-by-election-run-scared-brexit_uk_58aee1a6e4b05ca474a112a0?r7lf6gaijq4u0udi
UKIP’s Paul Nuttall Set To ‘Run Scared’ Of Andrew Marr Show If He Loses In Stoke Central

This is one hell of an odd story for the day of the election.

OP posts:
Cailleach1 · 23/02/2017 14:06

Another kipper will probably be on in some guise or another. There is always one on any current affairs programme. I never saw many MEP's on before. And now they do, it is only UKIP MEP's on.

Actually UKIP are always on. Suzanne Evans, O'Flynn, Farage, Nuttall, Carswell, other vaired ones.

I must say, bl**dy hell. The people Andrew Marr puts on to review the papers. Is that the best a country of roughly 65million people can ask on?

I'm actually warming more to PESTON. I think he sometimes gives a less easy ride than Sunday Politics or Andrew Marr show.

lalalonglegs · 23/02/2017 14:39

Some good news from the House of Lords - it looks likely that the Lords have enough support to add an amendment to Art 50 bill asking for a guarantee for the rights of EU citizens resident in the UK plus, possibly, enough for an amendment on a meaningful vote at the end of the negotiations.

LurkingHusband · 23/02/2017 14:53

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/23/thousands-eea-doctors-may-leave-uk-after-brexit-survey-bma

About 12,000 doctors trained in European countries could quit the UK because they feel less welcome following the Brexit vote, according to a survey of overseas medics.

About two in five doctors who qualified in European Economic Area countries are considering leaving the UK in light of the referendum result, research by the British Medical Association reveals.

The findings prompted alarm about an impending “disaster” in medical staffing and fears that an exodus of EEA doctors could exacerbate already significant personnel shortages in NHS hospitals.

The BMA’s findings are based on a survey it undertook of 1,193 EEA doctors working in the UK. When asked if they were thinking about leaving the UK following last year’s referendum vote, 500 (42%) said yes, 309 (26%) said no, 278 (23%) were unsure, while the other 106 did not answer.

(contd)

Peregrina · 23/02/2017 15:01

Someone will come and tell us that this is a sample, and you can't extrapolate. Just remember that yourself when you try to tell us that xxx still want to Leave bases on a YouGov or whatever sample of 1,000 people.

boredofbrexit · 23/02/2017 15:07

USA may join the Commonwealth by Royal Invite.

Mistigri · 23/02/2017 15:14

Respect for education and knowledge is earned not automatic.

The brexit ministers have shown time and time again that they do not grasp basic facts about trade. I'm not sure why anyone would respect their opinions. (I used to have some respect for David D., but his performance in the last 6 months has been dire. I have none whatsoever for Boris, who is a lazy, self-aggrandizing clown, nor for Fox, who is stupid and dishonest).

Mistigri · 23/02/2017 15:17

Someone will come and tell us that this is a sample, and you can't extrapolate. Just remember that yourself when you try to tell us that xxx still want to Leave bases on a YouGov or whatever sample of 1,000 people.

10% of your population is a big sample. And they got a very - unusually - high response rate by the look of it.