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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

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LurkingHusband · 01/03/2017 11:18

The whole PFI fiasco was designed to be investment without actually having to call it investment or have it on the governments balance sheets.

Just you wait until those PFI "investments" start coming due. Hospitals, schools, leisure centres all disappearing to be turned into luxury flats for the foreign wealthy. The only saving grace is the way things are going, the Tories will get the blame ... if I'm not dead by then, I might actually die of the irony of it.

Motheroffourdragons · 01/03/2017 11:18

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This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/03/2017 11:19

The EU hasn't stopped the Uk investing in training, infrastructure, manufacturing

The Uk doesn't do this because CEOs, shareholders, managers aren't interested in longterm, just what they can loot in the next 3-6 months, for their bonuses and dividends

And politicians are only interested in what the public will vote for - and apparently taxpayers vote for tax cuts, not for investment in infrastructure or public services.

The govt has brought in another billion pound cut in inheritance tax - which helps the wealthier property-owning section of the country, but cuts the amount available to help the rest.

Take from the have-nots, give to the have-a-lot

unicornsIlovethem · 01/03/2017 11:20

The EU has stepped in to fulfil a lot of the investment the government should have been doing. Never mind, I'm sure the unicorns will provide.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/03/2017 11:22

" the way things are going, the Tories will get the blame"
LH Probably not. They can blame EU punishment beatings, Muslims, all immigrants, Remainers, Enemies of the People, Labour, Liberal, all firms who don't support Brexit ....

BigChocFrenzy · 01/03/2017 11:28

May is pandering to the hard right of her party, because Corbyn & Labour are totally useless as an opposition to her left.
The Tory right is only interested in low taxes, not investment and certainly not in helping anyone who isn't well off

I perfectly understand Tory supporters being happy about May's Brexit, but I'm baffled why Lexiters are

Looks like "screw the poor" until at least 2030
The UK upper classes and superwealthy taking back control from everyone else

woman12345 · 01/03/2017 11:34

I'm baffled why Lexiters are me too. Barabara Castle and the lovely old school labour were anti brexit, but times were different then and the music was better. Grin
In their assertions that they are supporting Greece agains German capitalist imperialism, they are opening the door to a Golden Dawn victory on our most strategically important ally.

Motheroffourdragons · 01/03/2017 11:38

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This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

woman12345 · 01/03/2017 11:40

Does any one remember Denis 'tax them till their pips squeak' Healey, well known communist and firebrand.Grin

LurkingHusband · 01/03/2017 12:02

And politicians are only interested in what the public will vote for - and apparently taxpayers vote for tax cuts, not for investment in infrastructure or public services.

There is never a bad time to drop this into debate ...

A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.

LurkingHusband · 01/03/2017 12:18

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39082046

Canada and Australia could be the unanticipated beneficiaries from Brexit in the competition for international students, entrepreneur and university leader Lord Bilimoria has said.

The Indian-born chancellor of the University of Birmingham said an "anti-immigrant" backlash from the Brexit referendum and disputes over student visas could see UK universities losing overseas students.

(contd).

Given Birmingham (perversely) voted Leave, they are presumably happy to see their university run down. Not such good news for all the people who are hoping to cash in on the student rental market. Maybe they'll have to lower their rents ...

unicornsIlovethem · 01/03/2017 13:42

Following on from the Medium article on Trump voters and Reddit the other day - this is Laurie Penney's story of her roadtrip with Milo Yiannopolous which echoes many of the same themes:

psmag.com/on-the-milo-bus-with-the-lost-boys-of-americas-new-right-629a77e87986#.teoi0yfd6

howabout · 01/03/2017 14:09

LH interview with Lord Bilmoria is interesting and I accept what he is saying about internationalism in education and entrepreneurship. However as a Lexiter it is quite difficult for me to resist the temptation to point to the concentration on growth rather than profitability at Cobra beers which led to it going into administration after running up huge losses - a bit like the UK focusing on GDP in total rather than GDP per head and productivity growth to justify short termism under cover of EU FoM and restrictive business support policies.

Peregrina · 01/03/2017 14:37

Where is Red? A new thread is almost due. I dare say one of us could start another, but we would miss the opening commentary.

SemiPermanent · 01/03/2017 14:48

It just wouldn't be right, Peregrina!

I'm all for change etc, but one of these threads without RTB as the host would feel wrong Shock

NinonDeLanclos · 01/03/2017 14:57

I perfectly understand Tory supporters being happy about May's Brexit, but I'm baffled why Lexiters are

Because they believe Brexit heralds a bright socialist utopia where inequality and all other wrongs are righted.

NinonDeLanclos · 01/03/2017 14:59

That they've actually voted in a harder right government than Mrs T, seems to have escaped them.

missmoon · 01/03/2017 15:24

"a bit like the UK focusing on GDP in total rather than GDP per head and productivity growth to justify short termism under cover of EU FoM and restrictive business support policies."

There isn't a single bit of government policy (in any department) that has as its goal higher total GDP (or total GDP growth), rather than GDP per capita or GDP per capita growth. In fact, the outcome targets are usually much more specific than this (transitions into employment, health outcomes, educational outcomes, transitions into higher education, etc.). Every mention in the media, PMQs etc. to GDP growth actually refers to GDP per capita growth, GDP growth on its own doesn't make any sense (it's just a measure of scale). Also, I don't see how this links to FoM?

LurkingHusband · 01/03/2017 15:38

There isn't a single bit of government policy (in any department) that has as its goal higher total GDP (or total GDP growth), rather than GDP per capita or GDP per capita growth

I thought government policy was that we should all be happy (with what we've got) ?

howabout · 01/03/2017 16:29

I take it you didn't believe Osborne's Treasury forecast of us all being individually £4k worse off based on wildly pessimistic total GDP forecasts hypothecated to per capita having adjusted for fall in growth due to fall in migration without corresponding reduction in headcount either then missmoon - aka Project Fear. Very rarely is GDP quoted per capita. If it were team GB would have been in technical recession for most of the last 10 years. Shock

howabout · 01/03/2017 16:36

A decent article from the Guardian in 2014 on the issue of flat / falling GDP per capita in the face of rising GDP

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/07/rising-uk-population-gdp-recovery-ons

Kaija · 01/03/2017 16:37

Falling growth is not likely to be due solely to falling migration though is it? The greater factor is the fall in investment resulting from losing membership of the single market.

howabout · 01/03/2017 16:47

That is a whole other discussion Kaija and too many unknowables as the BoE etc freely admit.

Just reading about Australia not having been in recession for 25 years. Not quite so surprising when you know their population growth runs at a managed average of 2% (US closer to 1% for comparison)

lalalonglegs · 01/03/2017 16:56

Australia's boom has not that much to do with its population growth and rather a lot to do with the price of many ores and minerals - which it has in abundance - shooting up due to the economies in Asia growing at a rocket pace.

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