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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

OP posts:
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comfortandjoyce · 22/02/2017 18:33

Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them.

A wee bit patronising, maybe? Politicians could make exactly the same response to all kinds of right-on demands:

Want free childcare, no tuition fees, higher benefits? "Sorry, you don’t give children sweets because they demand them".

Want to open the borders and let everyone from Calais into the country? "Sorry, you don’t give children sweets because they demand them".

Want a minority to overturn the democratic will of a majority? "Sorry, you don’t give children sweets because they demand them".

Populism is what people call democracy when they don't get their way.

ElenaGreco123 · 22/02/2017 18:36

I'd like to thank lurking for his definition of communism. All this apparent confusion around communism, socialism, national socialism and fascism really gets on my nerves. Sorry. I blame the history curriculum in the UK or rather the lack of it.

LurkingHusband · 22/02/2017 18:37

Humans are the most abundant resource in the world

is it too incendiary to suggest this is possibly the elephant in the room ?

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 18:37

Populism is what people call democracy when they don't get their way
No it's not.

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 18:39

is it too incendiary
No, moronic more like.

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 18:48

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/22/french-elections-centrist-bayrou-offers-alliance-with-macron
This is what grown ups do to fight fascists.

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 18:51

Bayrou said:^ “Perhaps it’s a sacrifice for me, but I feel there are times one has to rise to the seriousness of the situation and consider how to get out of it. It’s not a time for me to think of myself, but of my country.”

Bayrou said the French were “disorientated and despairing”, faced with the far-right Front National candidate Marine Le Pen – currently leading in the polls for the first round vote – who he said was the “threat and major danger for our country and Europe”, and Fillon, 62, hit by allegations over jobs given to his wife and children.

“Never in the past 50 years has the democracy in France known such a situation,” Bayrou said, adding that French politics was riddled with “practices that would not be expected anywhere else”. The presidential campaign, which has been rocked by scandals, had left him “stupefied” and “made a mockery of France”, he added^

Imagine if politicians in Britain who represent democracy and who are 'non populists' could unite and fight?

boredofbrexit · 22/02/2017 18:53

womanHmm
That is what career politicians without an ounce of conviction do when they want a piece of the action.

boredofbrexit · 22/02/2017 18:54

worked for cleggersGrin not

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 18:55

Do you know anything about politics 'bored'?

comfortandjoyce · 22/02/2017 18:56

is it too incendiary to suggest this is possibly the elephant in the room ?

Well, on this board it is - it took less than 2 minutes for someone to call the idea "moronic". In the real world, however, it is probably the single greatest problem facing the human race:

In the past year the population of the African continent grew by 30 million. By the year 2050, annual increases will exceed 42 million people per year and total population will have doubled to 2.4 billion, according to the UN. This comes to 3.5 million more people per month, or 80 additional people per minute. At that point, African population growth would be able to re-fill an empty London five times a year.

From any big-picture perspective, these population dynamics will have an influence on global demography in the 21st century. Of the 2.37 billion increase in population expected worldwide by 2050, Africa alone will contribute 54%. By 2100, Africa will contribute 82% of total growth: 3.2 billion of the overall increase of 3.8 billion people. Under some projections, Nigeria will add more people to the world’s population by 2050 than any other country.

www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2016/jan/11/population-growth-in-africa-grasping-the-scale-of-the-challenge

Yep, that's the Guardian, not the Daily Mail.

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 18:57

We all know where LH was going with that one.

whatwouldrondo · 22/02/2017 19:08

NotDavid My comment about those who voted because they considered it unfair that immigration policy discriminated in favour of EU immigrants arose out of not just direct experience of a few people who came out with that reasoning but also knowing it was a particular factor in the leave /UKIP support in towns and cities where there are high numbers of non EU immigrants / people born here but with non EU immigrant backgrounds. All the people I know had direct experience of the harshness of non EU immigration controls. Of course that is not to say that it isn't racist in origin as well, having a non EU immigrant background certainly does not mean you cannot be racist towards other immigrant groups. As in why should the Eastern Europeans be coming here and taking our school places and doctor's appointments when my brother / cousin / spouse even isn't allowed to come? I have never heard that point made in relation to people from other EU backgrounds......

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 19:18

Vile Teresa Viliers on Channel 4 news now.

Britain 35 th (?) most un migrant friendly country, pure racism, absolutely cruel and shameful.

Serfs allowed in but not partners and children, eh Teresa? What was that you were saying about Christian values Peregrina?

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2017 19:20

Thanks for the fred and the stimulating OP, red

Jacob Rees-Mogg and his nanny have assured us that Brexit is a blow against the establishment
< gavel >

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 19:25
Grin
EurusHolmesViolin · 22/02/2017 19:31

Nobody making the argument that EEA free movement is unfair to non-EEA nationals has addressed the fact that it's easier for a non-EEA national to come as the family member of an EEA national than in any other capacity, as far as I can tell. There are fewer obstacles. But there's the perception that people here under EU law are all white Euros. Not the case!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2017 19:32

The Times:Corbyn is making Tories veer to the right

A despairing Labour MP:

“I’m never going to put out a leaflet with Jeremy Corbyn’s picture on it,”
“Not just because I know he’s unpopular but because I believe he’s unfit to be prime minister.

The public think we are treating them with contempt.
They are getting to the point where they are not even engaging with us — they are just angry.”

"The defining factor at Westminster is that the prime minister does not fear a general election.
The Conservatives are surer than they have ever been that if they went to the country, with Mr Corbyn in place as Labour leader, they would win power again and with a greatly increased parliamentary majority."

"This means that Theresa May is more worried about the Eurosceptic hardliners on the benches behind her than she is about the official opposition"

"Her priority in negotiations with the EU is to prove her commitment to the Brexit cause — promising to pull out of the single market and curtail immigration — rather than to assuage the anxieties of the 48 per cent of the country that voted Remain."

"From child refugees to grammar schools, prison reform to corporate governance, every decision is made with the Tory right, rather than the Tory centre or Labour left, in mind"

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/corbyn-is-making-tories-veer-to-the-right-zd0rtnk70

"A YouGov poll found that Mr Corbyn had negative ratings among men and women, old and young, rich and poor as well as voters from every region"

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 19:36

JC's election was always an unmitigated tragedy for the whole country.
Putin and ISIS must be thrilled.

SemiPermanent · 22/02/2017 19:48

Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

From your opening post RTB - spot on.
Also Bored's post at 17:18

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2017 19:49

There was nothing under EU law to stop any UK govt allowing non-EU citizens to come to the UK under the same terms as EU cirizens.

Hence my initial puzzlement why this would change post-Brexit
... except of course that countries like India are demanding easier immigration visas as part of any post-Brexit trade deal.
Brexit changes the balance of power, when the UK is desperate for trade deals
A minority of voters may have been very cunning here.

boredofbrexit · 22/02/2017 19:55

Plenty, woman but do you know anything about humanity and life outside your window?

This thread....ughhhh.

ElenaGreco123 · 22/02/2017 19:57

Blush I know ask the local Labour party to show me the leaflets before I put them through letterboxes, as I am only willing to do local campaigns.

kudos and Wine to Bayrou.
This election in France reminds me of the election in Houllebecq's Submission so much. Without the Islamists, of course.

AnnieKenney · 22/02/2017 20:02

BigChoc: I have been away for a few days and it has taken me some time to catch up but I did not want to let your accounts of your childhood experiences to pass without some acknowledgement from me (along with others already made). My heart is sore at what you experienced and (for what worth it isn't) I have been just furious on your behalf all day. Flowers

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 20:25

^Brexit changes the balance of power, when the UK is desperate for trade deals
A minority of voters may have been very cunning here^
Is it a clumsy attempt to try to harness Asian trade deals BCF?
Or what Hanif Kureshi said?.