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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2017 22:31

Of course most people will agree with May's plans, when the alternative is Corbyn's plans, gawd help us all.

Most of the country think:
a) he doesn't have a coherent plan about anything
b) he isn't competent to run a bath, let alone a country
c) he was chums with the IRA while they were bombing us ffs.

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 22:33

Oh, I see My point was not that the polls have necessarily been 'bought' but that the decision was, however what's done, is done.

So what is the plan comfort?

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2017 22:34

May even gets higher ratings than Corbyn on the NHS, which is ridiculous for a Labour leader during Tory cutbacks, unless voters assume he'll destroy anything he touches

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 22:34

And he's been asked not to campaign in Stoke with or without his wee hat.Grin

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 22:34

Is he a conservative?

Kaija · 22/02/2017 22:38

I guess it turns out that there is a socialist equivalent of the disaster capitalist.

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 22:38

For auld lang syne:

mathanxiety · 22/02/2017 22:46

From the quote from Rafael Behr's opinion piece in the Guardian today on politicians not listening from UltraLightBeam:
British unemployed people would rather be on JSA than be sponge-bathing old people or picking cabbage for minimum wage.

That is rather scathing and not accurate either.
There are factors such as the cost of transport and clothing that make working for the minimum wage impossible.

It is not that people would rather be on JSA - they would rather have better jobs that would pay them enough to live on, and they would rather they did not see their meagre earnings eaten up by transport costs or the cost of weatherproof clothing and footwear, and they would like a year round job that ticks those boxes, not one that lasts for the growing season, forcing them to go through the application and assessment process for JSA and other programmes every time the cabbages are all picked and packed. They can't go home to Poland to live rent free with their families and work for their brother in law at a part time winter job. People are not working for the heck of it, or because it is a moral choice or because they think work is good for you on some metaphysical level. They are not unemployed for the heck of it either, or because it is an amoral choice. People are smart enough to do the maths and they know the reality of their situations.

Having a pattern of employment (at seasonal labour) can mean your JSA application gets turned down. Doing a course at a FE college can get you turned down for JSA even though a qualification could greatly improve your chances of getting a job.

'There is a lot of piss taking in the caring world. Things like expecting the workers to pay for the petrol with their own money or travelling time not being counted as working time even though they have no choice but to travel quite a way to go to see one person to the next. None of that would be accepted in other professions.'
THIS^^

Politicians may well be listening, but they are not joining the dots, as Red posted in the last thread. They are failing to understand the complete reality faced by the poor even though they may be aware of some elements of it - there is no couple of thousand in the bank to subsidise your travel and your clothing costs to enable you to get to and from your job and work at it. There is no handy granny or nanny able and willing to get the children up and out to school at no cost because you have to leave at the crack of stupid o'clock to travel on three buses and a good walk out to the cabbage farm.

Peregrina · 22/02/2017 22:50

Politicians may well be listening, but they are not joining the dots, as Red posted in the last thread.

Quite, although Theresa May talked about a 'country which works for everyone' she didn't mention the people who aren't managing. I suspect her emphasis on the 'just about managing' was a cynical ploy to get their votes.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2017 23:34

Immigration Attitudes

I found this 2014 ComRes poll that shows cake & eat it attitudes even then, or maybe that Brits don't think their shit stinks, just other people's:

52% think Brits should be free to live & work “anywhere in the EU”; only 26 % against
BUT
only 32% think EU citizens should be free to live & work in the UK; 46% against
Entitled much ! Grin

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders
Kaija · 22/02/2017 23:53

It's a shocker, bigchoc.

Ivan Rogers explains what the difference between single market access and single market membership looks like on the ground.

www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/feb/22/pmqs-may-corbyn-ivan-rogers--eu-ambassador-ivan-rogers-questions-by-commons-brexit-committee-politics-live?page=with:block-58ad7301e4b08ddc9a5e2762#block-58ad7301e4b08ddc9a5e2762

Bolshybookworm · 23/02/2017 06:38

Transport is a massive problem for the kids on the large and very deprived council estate where my friend works as a teacher. Any job requiring a car is completely inaccessible to them due to the insanely high insurance premiums if you're young and live in a rough area. Not many 18 year olds can afford to pay £2000 a year for insurance Shock. They're stuck with the slow and crappy bus service.

Badders123 · 23/02/2017 06:52

I think comparisons with 1983 and thatcher/foot and may/corbyn are valid and spot on tbh

unicornsIlovethem · 23/02/2017 07:01

I think there either needs to be government intervention to reduce the casualisation of labour and create jobs which are reasonable secure and sufficiently well paid to enable workers to have accommodation, food, access to transport etc, or there needs to be a citizens income with strict residency requirements and rent controls.

If they just go hell for leather towards Singapore which looks like the current strategy more and more people will be left behind.

Mistigri · 23/02/2017 07:03

Transport is a massive problem

I think well they people massively underestimate the barriers to work in some areas. I probably would too, but my DH comes from a working class Stoke family in which he was the first person to attend uni, etc etc. His cousins and nephew are still in Stoke. The nephew grew up in care, no education to speak of, but is very willing and hardworking. However, he was only able to get into the workforce and eventually get a stable job because his grandparents (my ILs) bought and insured a moped for him to get to his first job in a warehouse, and also paid for his driving lessons (he now works as a delivery driver).

Mistigri · 23/02/2017 07:04

That should start "I think well off people"

(Should proofread, but sometimes the iPad autocorrect does the weirdest things!)

Badders123 · 23/02/2017 07:09

Yep
Til I took out a loan at 21 and bought an old banger of a car I was restricted to my village for work
Not everyone has a mummy or daddy that can buy them a car at 18!
It was rubbish
Public transport? Ha!
Once an hour (if it decided to stop that is!)

woman12345 · 23/02/2017 07:30

In the new world order created by Trump and Brexit, Ireland could be ripped apart
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/23/ireland-border-brexit-trump-eu

BigChocFrenzy · 23/02/2017 07:44

Badders Even worse than 1983, imo:

Michale Foot was a genuinely great intellect, author, talented orator.
He was a proud Parliamentarian and fulfilled his duties as Leader of the Opposition
He was much further to the left than the voters - but was never chums with the IRA / Sinn Fein
He didn't cling on, to alter party rules to enable an equally far left successor.

BUT
He also faced a situation where voters rallied around a Tory PM in nationalist enthusiasm and disregarded all the issues where Labour are strong:
The Falklands War

Brexit serves the same purpose of focusing voters on a crisis where they feel they must support the govt and suck up anything else they do
Most voters have switched off critical thinking for the duration of the crisis, like in 1983

The Falklands War only lasted 6 weeks
Although the patriotic glow of victory lasted much longer, voters did then start paying attention to the nhs, public services etc

Brexit will last well into 2019 and will probably be followed by years of nationalist anger at the evil EU - and the Remainer traitors / Enemies of the People - not giving May her cake deal
I expect Labour to take a hit too, for not being sufficiently patriotic.

(btw, both crises - Falklands & Brexit - occurred mainly because a Tory govt badly miscalculated and wasn't paying enough attention)

BigChocFrenzy · 23/02/2017 07:55

It looks very grim for Ireland, woman

I've seen Leavers posting the usual "suck it up" - many rejoice because they think it will force the RoI to leave with the UK, which will then have at least one trading partner afterwards.
However, polls in the RoI show 85% wish to remain in the EU, because their country has been transformed by it.
So that's a non-starter.

If the RoI is badly hit, that would be another reason - not just NI - for the IRA to resume their "armed struggle" and take their anger to the London financial distict again. Where it was so effective before.

woman12345 · 23/02/2017 07:56

And, in 1983:
Free college, full grants, trade union rights, free transport to schools, home help for those who needed it, functioning NHS, anti racist policies in ILEA, people's republic of Sheffield had a cap on bus fares at 12p, which was low even then!. People had less and needed much less because there was a decent taxation system. There was a slump, but it was still possible to move to London and live and work. No matter how little you earnt, everyone was till taxed. Taxation was weaponised to cause much of this crap.

Agree on Foot. He was also a compassionate human.
Daily Heil went after him as a traitor too for wearing the wrong coat to remembrance day service. The Heil's war on the left has been many years in the making. They've fluffed a generation for this.

Badders123 · 23/02/2017 07:59

Different imo as prior to the flatlands war thatcher was actually very unpopular

Badders123 · 23/02/2017 07:59

falklands

woman12345 · 23/02/2017 07:59

IRA to resume their "armed struggle" bigchoc
The commitment to peace is so strong, I wonder if it could really happen. And there's the strange irony of brexit potentially leading to a united Ireland.
As you say it's the ROI that's the issue, as much as NI.

woman12345 · 23/02/2017 08:01

EU right wingers destroyed Thatch, badders That's why May is channelling her inner Pol Pot.

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