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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

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TheFullMrexit · 22/02/2017 20:38

You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up

your really comparing grown voting adults to children? Shock

comfortandjoyce · 22/02/2017 20:51

your really comparing grown voting adults to children?

Amazing, isn't it? Adults can't be trusted to vote because they might actually vote for what they want. Which would be "populist". Or something.

Kaija · 22/02/2017 20:51

I knew that analogy would cause trouble.

You could equally say that you don't as a responsible builder agree to knock down a supporting wall without an RSJ against the advice of structural engineers just because your client tells you that's what they want.

We might not be children but we do collectively hand responsibility for national decisions over to our representatives in government on the basis that they have the time and access to information to make those decisions on our behalf.

AllTheLight · 22/02/2017 20:57

Place marking

comfortandjoyce · 22/02/2017 21:01

We might not be children but we do collectively hand responsibility for national decisions over to our representatives in government on the basis that they have the time and access to information to make those decisions on our behalf.

And occasionally we give them a direct instruction on the basis of a yes or no vote on a single issue. In a referendum, for example.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 22/02/2017 21:07

on a single issue. In a referendum, for example.

But leaving the EU isn't a single issue is it? As we are now finding out it affects science, research, education, jobs, ex pats, EU citizens in UK I could go on and on.

Kaija · 22/02/2017 21:09

An advisory referendum, comfort. They still are obliged to act in our best interests.

lalalonglegs · 22/02/2017 21:14

But, as has been endlessly pointed out over the past eight months, it's not a single issue. Did leavers want more or less immigration? (If they were voting on the basis of less, they're in for a bit of a disappointment.) Was it about sovreignty (again, doesn't seem top of Theresa May's list as she tries to circumvent Parliament and any attempt at scrutiny). Were they voting to quit the Single Market - certainly some of them may have been but definitely not all. The Customs Union? Even fewer were voting for this, imo. The list goes on. It seems to me that this is going to disappoint everyone be it people who voted to save the NHS, people who voted to stop sending money to Brussels (we'll probably end up sending just as much but will have spent billions trying to extract ourselves and establish our own bureaucracies), people who wanted to kick Cameron (arguably we've ended up with someone worse) etc etc.

lalalonglegs · 22/02/2017 21:15

Laptop playing up - that took ages to post and I crossed with FrankGrimes. I also know how to spell sovereignty Smile.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 22/02/2017 21:17

Amazing, isn't it? Adults can't be trusted to vote because they might actually vote for what they want. Which would be "populist". Or something.

Brexiters aren't going to get what they want as we now know. No 350 mil for NHS, sovereignty never lost, no control over immigration.

Given one reason for leaving the EU was no more straight bananas I think it is reasonable to question how informed voters are.

EurusHolmesViolin · 22/02/2017 21:19

I just don't see how anyone could characterise this as single issue when there are multiple different ways to be out of the EU and we were asked for our views on none of them.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 22/02/2017 21:22

we were asked for our views on none of them.

Leaving the hard right free to do whatever the hell they want. None of it of course will benefit "the left behind" or neglected northern towns. Leave voters have been sold a pup.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2017 21:23

Thanks AnnieKenney SmileFlowers

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 21:23

Leavers are unwitting patsies to a bigger and very international project.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2017 21:24

The drive for Brexit, in particular the anger against the "elite" was stoked by the rightwing sections of the UK media, in order to gain popular support for the preoccupations & financial interests of their billionaire owners.

They have brilliantly diverted the anger of the dispossessed away from the 0.01% who have dispossessed them and onto the 48%, not just on the EU

comfortandjoyce · 22/02/2017 21:25

Given one reason for leaving the EU was no more straight bananas I think it is reasonable to question how informed voters are.

The right to vote requires no qualifications, which is both democracy's greatest strength and its greatest weakness. Once you start introducing qualifications, you'll get policy made entirely by the rich and educated, which may well be an effective form of government, but it won't be a democracy.

woman12345 · 22/02/2017 21:27

Thoughts on populism and hateful discourse.
www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2017/feb/22/hateful-discourse-stems-from-the-top-but-theres-plenty-of-evidence-britain-is-not-broken

financial interests of their billionaire owners Atlantic Bridge, again plus the many we know FA about Hmm

Kaija · 22/02/2017 21:28

They have brilliantly diverted the anger of the dispossessed away from the 0.01% who have dispossessed them and onto the 48%, not just on the EU

yes, this.

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 21:28

Yes I do think voters are like children.

I include myself in that. MPs are supposed to be our elected guardians safeguarding our interests.

If its patronising, its patronising myself too.

Just because the majority of people in an area don't vote for something, doesn't mean minorities should be ignored.

If we did that, you would ignore the poor in 'rich areas' and the rich in 'poor areas' would be even more privileged. (Change rich/poor for any other minorities in areas that they live)

MPs are supposed to represent the interests and fight the causes of ALL their constituents regardless of whether they voted for them or not.

By the same token, DH as a scout leader, often finds that giving the difficult and disruptive children the benefit of the doubt and giving them responsibility rather than punishing them, often works much better as it shows mutual respect.

Its about exercising balance and a more complex relationship with the electorate rather than just doing what the majority people want to hear as that neglects the consequences of doing that.

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Kaija · 22/02/2017 21:29

"Once you start introducing qualifications"

Who has suggested this?

lalalonglegs · 22/02/2017 21:29

Why wouldn't you want a government to be educated? What has ignorance got going for it?

lalalonglegs · 22/02/2017 21:30

Sorry, slow post again, that was for joyce.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 22/02/2017 21:31

Our democracy is deeply flawed due to politicians peddling half truths and the power of the media barons to push their own selfish agenda.

Any decent democracy would encourage informed, reasoned debate based on facts.

I'm getting abit tired of leave voters complaining about being called stupid when it is abundantly clear many voters were ill-informed and voted for spurious reasons (straight bananas) the ramifications of which will be felt for generations.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2017 21:31

Uk newspapers, on the side of the British people ? ... are owned by :

  • the Barclay brothers (Torygraph, £6.5bn tax exiles)
  • Richard Desmond (Express, £2.5bn, UKIP donor)
  • Viscount Rothermere (Fail, £1bn, owned through offshore trusts)
  • Rupert Murdoch (Australian $11.7bn, serial manipulator of governments in several countries)

Every one of them is a fully paid up oligarch running the global establishment they are pretending to attack.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 22/02/2017 21:34

What has ignorance got going for it?

well if you're a mendacious politician or newspaper owner the ability to play your audience like a puppet on a string.

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