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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

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Peregrina · 23/02/2017 08:07

I still think the right wingers might destroy May, or this time, they might destroy themselves in the process. Partly because they are all now getting older, so not as astute as they were if they ever were.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/02/2017 08:15

Jacob Rees-Mogg and the younger gen are even more entitled and dismissive of the other 99% than their elders.
They bring nanny too.

woman12345 · 23/02/2017 08:17

And they are all in hoc to other interests, in 1987, we still had the integrity and accountability of publicly owned institutions.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/02/2017 08:20

Also, since the Tory party has such low membership for a major party, it is as vulnerable as the GOP was to alt-right takeover

In contrast, the SNP has about 120,000 members, 3% of the 4 million Scottish electorate.
Probably why Unionists think the SNP are everywhere - they really are.

woman12345 · 23/02/2017 08:30

Didn't know that bigchoc, same with the corbynistras.
There's two politics going on here, and did you see Watson and Mosley money today?
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/14/tom-watson-donation-max-mosley

WrongTrouser · 23/02/2017 08:48

I know bored mentioned Brendan Cox's article in the Telegraph on the last thread but I am c&p ying it here too as it is well worth reading.

It is now more than eight months since my wife Jo was murdered on the streets of her constituency of Batley and Spen. Although I’m told that time will heal, those months have not dulled the pain or lessened the chasm at the heart of our family.

For much of the time I feel like I am still in shock, that I have yet to take on board the enormity and the permanence of what has happened. By instinct, I still regularly start typing text messages to Jo; to tell her what time I’ll be back, what I’ve been up to or when something funny happens ... make a mental note to tell Jo at the end of the day.

The suddenness, brutality and absurdity of her murder make the shock all the more profound. But confronted with this pain I, Jo’s family, and our friends have resolved to channel that grief into something more positive. Not because we are particularly brave or resilient people – we are not – but because we know it is what Jo would have wanted us to do.

And what Jo would have wanted us to do now, more than ever, is to work to bring our communities closer together.

That’s where Jo’s politics started on the streets of Batley, West Yorkshire. She believed that closer ties – where we know our neighbours, invest in our communities and are able to keep an eye out for each other’s children – aren’t some throwback to the 1950’s but are the cornerstone of life in our country today.

Jo felt that this closeness was under threat from a whole range of things, whether it was the social media bubbles that push us deeper into our own echo chambers, or the changing nature of economics, leading to more insecure and atomised working environments, or the extremists, of all sorts, who fixate on difference and who seek to divide us.

Jo said in her maiden speech in the House of Commons in 2015 that she believed that there was more that unites us than divides us, even in as diverse a place as Batley.

But she worried that we find too few opportunities to focus on what binds us and to celebrate it.

Whether it is elections, referendums or social media sparring, we find plenty of opportunities to talk about things that we disagree with each other on, but far too few occasions to celebrate the things that bring us together. So today, with the support of the Duchess of Cornwall, we are setting out our plans.

Jo was always ambitious, not for herself but for what could be done. She didn’t believe in putting anything on to the “too difficult” pile. I hope it is fitting, therefore, that what we announce today is both bold and purposeful.

Above all, I hope that the occasion can help fulfil the pledge that I made at the time of her death to fight the hatred that killed Jo and advance the work that she was doing to try to bring our country back together.

In short, we hope that the weekend of June 17-18 will see the biggest communal party in this country since the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee in 2012. Jo loved a party, so that is a good place to start. She was committed, both in her politics and in her life, to reaching out to others and healing divisions. So that is where we hope to end up.

Put simply, we are asking communities to come together to celebrate all that we have in common. How they chose to do this will be entirely up to them. It might be a street party, a shared barbecue, a bake-off competition or a simple picnic in the park.

We’re calling it The Great Get Together and the hope is that millions of people will take part in some way over the weekend.

Already the number and variety of organisations backing the idea reflects all that is best in our great, diverse and exhilarating country.

Those who have already pledged their support range from the Women’s Institute to the RNLI, with the Scouts and Guides movement, the Royal British Legion, Glastonbury Festival, the Countryside Alliance, the TUC, football’s Premier League, Amnesty International and the RSPB.

The Archbishop of Canterbury has also given the project his blessing. The Chief Rabbi, Ephraim Mirvis, will be attending our launch today at Clarence House (the London residence of the Prince of Wales). Leaders of all faiths have responded enthusiastically to the message of togetherness and optimism encapsulated by the idea.

The Big Lunch, the organisation that helped make the Diamond Jubilee such a success and which has been encouraging people to sit down and eat with their neighbours every year since 2009, is lending its experience and expertise.

With events in every corner of the country, on village greens, city streets and at some of the nation’s most famed venues, the Great Get Together will be a truly national moment.

First and foremost, we hope it will be enjoyable, just a chance for communities to come together and have fun. But we also hope it will give us a chance to reassert what unites us as a country, as a nation – the values of community, of tolerance of baking and of parties.

The reason I am so optimistic is not because of our capacity to organise this (we have none) or the brilliance of the idea (breaking bread together is hardly original), it’s because I think there is a national mood that is crying out for this.

I believe that people are sick of the emphasis placed upon our divisions, along with political extremism and the nastiness of the public debate at this time.

People are looking for an chance to bring our communities together. That is what we hope the Great Get Together will become.

In her New Year message, Theresa May observed that: “As the fantastic MP Jo Cox, who was tragically taken from us last year, put it: 'We are far more united and have far more in common than that which divides us’.”

The year 2017, the Prime Minister said, was an opportunity to move forward and to “bring this country together, as never before”

My hope, indeed my conviction, is that through the Great Get Together we can start to do exactly that.

LurkingHusband · 23/02/2017 09:33

I think there either needs to be government intervention

The problem is which government ? Which leads to the see-saw politics of the past 60 years.

And anyway, we already have more government intervention than you can shake a stick at.

boredofbrexit · 23/02/2017 09:40

Valient effort Wrong Trouser, the tumbleweed blew for 45 minutes...or was it Storm Doris?

Bearbehind · 23/02/2017 10:14

I don't really see why you think that piece by Brendan Cox is so worthy of comment wrong and bored

Yes, it's a nice idea but it's beyond naive to think the current divisions in this country can be resolved by a tea party. In fact it's pretty offensive really.

TM thinks 65m people are behind her Brexit plans so that shows just how detached from reality she is.

Mistigri · 23/02/2017 10:21

Net migration starting to fall - down about 50k in the year to September 2016.

Very likely to fall again in the December quarter IMO (reported increases in recruitment difficulties in sectors relying on EU migrants).

I speculated a while ago that this might have been May's plan all along - to drive migration down prior to brexit making it easier to make the case for remaining in the SM. I wouldn't bet the house on this being correct, but you could certainly make an argument for it.

Bearbehind · 23/02/2017 10:22

The second half of my post disappeared!

Divisions will be healed when Leavers stop putting their fingers in their ears and crossing their fingers about how Brexit will actually evolve.

Only when these questions get answered satisfactorily will there be less division.

The Great Get Together is a good idea in terms of communities but it is foolish to think it will unite people over Brexit.

prettybird · 23/02/2017 10:25

Boris Johnston challenged on the use of the word "liberation"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/23/boris-johnson-munich-brexit-liberation?CMP=ShareiOSAppOther

In the article, Bildt mentions that TM last month said that careless words could and would make the EU negotiations more difficult.

Methinks she'll have to gag the Three Stooges Hmm

WrongTrouser · 23/02/2017 10:29

Yes, it's a nice idea but it's beyond naive to think the current divisions in this country can be resolved by a tea party. In fact it's pretty offensive really

I really don't think that is what Brendan Cox was saying in the article.

bored Sad I wasn't expecting much of a response, but it may strike a chord with some posters or lurkers.

Bearbehind · 23/02/2017 10:33

I really don't think that is what Brendan Cox was saying in the article

I get that wrong, hence my questioning why you'd posted it on here, a thread about Brexit, and why bored commented on the fact no one had responded

prettybird · 23/02/2017 10:34

Oh - and laudable as Brendan Cox's motives are, I feel no part of the nation he is wanting to "come together", so I doubt there will be any afternoon teas or communal parties up here. In the same way that there were extremely few if any street parties in Scotland in celebration of the Queen's Jubilee Hmm did enjoy the day off though Grin

Motheroffourdragons · 23/02/2017 10:44

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

whatwouldrondo · 23/02/2017 10:45

We had a shot at a more in common thread, it ended up with two of us agreeing we agreed on quite a lot in terms of what I would regard as guided by a moral compass of decency. However as I discussed with an American friend it seems like all those moral absolutes we were raised with and have worked hard to pass on to our children are not seen as absolute by quite a few of our politicians these days, things like respect for others regardless of gender, background, ethnicity, do as you would be done by, respect for the truth . Suddenly privilege has been unhooked from responsibility.

It didn't much attract people from either this thread or the Barmy Arms. To be honest I think people have invested too much self esteem in what divides us. So much more satisfying for the ego to reside in an entrenched position, stereotype and label (with the handy new lexicon of derogatory rhetoric) and then throw mud........

LurkingHusband · 23/02/2017 10:47

Currently, my feeling is Brexit is being carried out in the same way as if your attached neighbour set fire to his house (against your strongest suggestion they didn't) and they are now knocking on your door insisting you "pull together" to save both your houses.

Bearbehind · 23/02/2017 10:50

To be honest I think people have invested too much self esteem in what divides us. So much more satisfying for the ego to reside in an entrenched position, stereotype and label (with the handy new lexicon of derogatory rhetoric) and then throw mud........

To be honest I think that is complete and utter hogwash.

The fact that so many people want actual solutions to real problems does not mean they've over invested self esteem.

The fact that they don't think a tea party will muse it all go away doesn't mean they are satisfying their egos.

It's very comments like like that further the divide.

WrongTrouser · 23/02/2017 10:54

I get that wrong, hence my questioning why you'd posted it on here, a thread about Brexit

Because Brexit has caused (or made apparent) a lot of division in this country.

Bearbehind · 23/02/2017 10:57

Yes it has wrong but it is offensive to think that a tea party will heal the divide when there is absolutely nothing else being done to help.

When we get answers on how this is going to work out then maybe things will get better, until then it's not going to happen.

prettybird · 23/02/2017 10:59

I think most people respect the tragic circumstances that Brendan Cox is having to cope with and his need to feel that something positive comes from it. As a result, even if they disagree with his proposal, they are not going to criticise him directly.

WrongTrouser · 23/02/2017 11:00

And for clarity, I am really not suggesting that anyone should "get behind" Brexit, stop campaigning, marching, complaining or anything.

I would just like to see an end to the more tribal, knee jerk, divisive rhetoric (on both sides).

(birdy I believe this is your cue to pop in and point out where I have failed to post in line with the above, or indeed pick up anyone doing the above from a leave perspective)

missmoon · 23/02/2017 11:00

I agree with the comments above, the divisions are due to a lack of discussion about the strategies and plans for Brexit, and the government's approach of sweeping any anti- hard Brexit criticism under the carpet. I think a large proportion of Remainers would accept the referendum result if they were given a say in the type of Brexit the country should aim for. As it is, a large proportion of the population feel completely disenfranchised. I think the divisions will continue and worsen as Brexit progresses.

whatwouldrondo · 23/02/2017 11:12

Bear It does not apply to everybody, and of course we are all right to be pressuring for a proper plan and protesting against the direction in which the country is being taken. However the fact remains that much of the current division is tribal, there is a lexicon of new rhetoric with which to label the other tribe, the media has aided and abetted, and egos are invested in entrenched positions. Where does racism have it's roots if not in part in the need to feel superior? It is more pronounced in the US where Miller feels empowered enough to give a hand signal for white power in a press photo but it underlies the rise of racism in the U.K. too.

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