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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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whatwouldrondo · 28/02/2017 17:28

RedandYellow It is cold and dismal for months at a time with nothing but a 40 watt glow for about 3 hours around midday.....

I know people who have lots of reasons for going overseas and obviously the political climate is becoming a driver but that is honestly the most common........

RedAndYellowPeppers · 28/02/2017 17:36

what sorry was being very sarcastic there.

Its just that so many people bang on about how attractive the UK is and how everyone wants to go here.
the weather and the lack of light is never seen as a hindrance because the UK is a land of so many opportunities.
Its the discrepancy between what we are told people from 'abroad' are looking for and how we need to protect ourselves from that influx, and what the british people themselves are doing, which is to look for better climate (despite lesser opportunities?) is making me go HmmHmm

Personally, I would chose the weather over anything else but I've had the good idea to fall in love with a Brit that likes the rain and the mud....

howabout · 28/02/2017 18:28

Redandyellow 1.5 million in Australia and New Zealand and 1.5 million in US and Canada all with stringent work related / points based visa systems. 0.7 million British pensioners supporting the Spanish economy. 0.3 million in Ireland balanced by the same number of Irish in the UK. ( about 200k in France and Belgium channel hopping back and forth make up most of the rest in the EU). A fair few tax exiles like Sean Connery, Lewis Hamilton and Philip Green.

Probably quite hard to make the case that UK citizens abroad are not contributing to their local economy.

My UK friends in the US are equally appalled by Trump and Brexit and you have to do a fair amount of turning a blind eye to emigrate to Oz.

Mistigri · 28/02/2017 18:34

Probably quite hard to make the case that UK citizens abroad are not contributing to their local economy.

I live in an area of France with a reasonable sized population of British families. Work here is scarce and most live off some rental income from the UK topped up by family and housing benefits. I am fairly sure that they are typical of Brits in rural france. These people do prop up the housing market to an extent,, but in return for substantial subs from french taxpayers like me.

TheElementsSong · 28/02/2017 18:44

0.7 million British pensioners supporting the Spanish economy.

Is this another one of those irregular verbs? We are expats who support the economy, you haven't integrated and aren't contributing, they are clogging up the health service and are simultaneously stealing our jobs and our benefits.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 28/02/2017 18:44

God yes what i would move for the weather

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 28/02/2017 18:46

0.7 million British pensioners supporting the Spanish economy.

Probably quite hard to make the case that UK citizens abroad are not contributing to their local economy.

I agree elements

howabout · 28/02/2017 18:54

Elements British pensioners, being paid British pensions, having healthcare costs met by UK government under EU rules and as retired not stealing anyone's job. As Misti points out they are probably also extracting a rent from the UK housing market collecting UK HB supported rent. (The French / Belgian Brits abroad I know are more of the Nigel Lawson / Andrew Neil variety than the ones Misti describes but I don't doubt that both types exist)

Not seeking to pass any judgement on the rights or wrongs of any citizen from anywhere being an expat / migrant anywhere else, just trying to unpick some of the hubris.

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 19:00

I think, purely on guesswork, no facts here, that UK saves a huge amount of social care money on the 'soft' care that goes with living cheaply in Spain, with all the health giving benefits of a more social and sunny culture.

If the social care and NHS budget is stretched now with millions of healthy working age contributing EU workers and carers, it ain't going to be pretty when almost a million older returnees come back. Never mind the cheap housing we don't have.

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 19:03

TM looks a bit too close to this one for comfort, on Channel 4 news:

@MichaelLCrick 25m

I challenge PM's top adviser Nick Timothy as secret emails show his role in S Thanet #electionexpenses #c4news

EmilyAlice · 28/02/2017 19:09

I thought the latest figures said that there are 1.2 million UK citizens in Europe, about 300,000 in Spain and 156,000 in France. The figures I saw said about 1/3 of those in Spain are retired and 1/4 to 1/3 in France.
Have to say as a (tax-paying) pensioner in France I know very few people who still have UK properties. Plenty of Brits with holiday homes here, but that is a totally different group.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/02/2017 19:19

I'm having a problem with the idea that UK expats are beneficial to the economy, whereas EU expats are a burden in the UK
Hmm
That UK expats driving up property prices abroad are "supporting the housing market" but EU expats are driving up housing costs in Britain.

btw, healthcare costs are only paid for retired UK citizens who receive UK state pension.
So, there is often a gap of several years until it kicks in, hence the expat nhs tourists.
Also, many UK expats retired abroad to enjoy lower cost of living and sunny climes. Not all have index-linked or large pensions and some won't cope with 15-20% reduced purchasing power

BigChocFrenzy · 28/02/2017 19:26

The EU may or may not be able to offer EU "citizenship" but they can't force the UK govt to continue funding healthcare for the over-67s or whenever.

Wealthy UK pensioners and Uk expats who are skilled mobile professionals will probaly have little problem staying
Thee is no hostility so far to UK expats, but those on low income may have to return to the UK as they can no longer afford to live abroad.

In the UK however, the sheer nastiness of the govt towards all immigrants is likely to put off those EU professionals who have plenty of other choices and cause many already here to leave, e.g. NHS doctors.

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 19:28

Channel 4 news now
Nick Timothy(PM adviser) and undeclared expenses in election campaign " new evidence of potential breach of civil service rules.".

whatwouldrondo · 28/02/2017 19:29

Howabout 1.5 million in Australia and New Zealand and 1.5 million in US and Canada all with stringent work related / points based visa systems. which in the case of Australia and New Zealand account for only proportion of immigrants, and are designed to attract, not deter immigrants. There are also partner visas, with very few exceptions (and even in some circumstances if a relationship is finished or the partner dead) and mutual arrangements so a New Zealander can get an Australian visa for their non Australian / New Zealand partner and vice versa. Australia took 10 times as many refugees as the UK last year.

The way that the Northern Territory have run the detention camps has rightly horrified the rest of the nation and is an abject lesson in the dangers of othering immigrants but our own detention centres are far from perfect www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/03/inside-yarls-wood-detention-centre-asylum-seekers-abuse-suicide

EmilyAlice · 28/02/2017 19:31

I think the difference there is in property prices. There has been a slump in house prices for years here and there are lots of empty houses.
We are the only full-time Brits in our village in rural Normandy.
The last set of statistics I saw said that the average household income in our village is 15,000€. Many of our neighbours live at a subsistence level. I think that our taxes are pretty welcome (and we pay them gladly).
Yes some people will be driven back if the £ continues to slump. That happened in 2008 as well.
Brexit has been a huge blow and added to the uncertainty.
Nobody moves here for an easy life in the sun though.

EmilyAlice · 28/02/2017 19:32

That is 15,000€ a year for the household.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/02/2017 19:35

Is May deliberately trying to make the UK a pariah, or does she think she's back in the days of Empire, when foreigners had to obey or be crushed ?

I'm astonished at the message the govt is sending even to non-EU countries, with whom it is apparently so eager to make trade agreements.
Headlines in Singapore and even China about expelling that poor Singapore woman married to a Brit just flushes the Uk reputation down the toilet.

Depressing how callous most posters are on the "Singapore grandma" thread - just parroting "rules are rules" (even when they get changing retrospectively in the case of EU citizens)

The same posters are probably those who regard it as outrageous that the EU holds to its rules about FOM if the UK wants to retain current trade and financial services terms of access.

So, UK rules = good
Foreigners rules = punishment beating

CeciledeVolanges · 28/02/2017 19:44

Peregrina Farage would get me out on the streets in protest. I'm normally quite unthreatening but I would give anything for some robust debate with him...

GhostofFrankGrimes · 28/02/2017 19:45

GMC poll shows 60% of European doctors are considering quitting UK

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/28/gmc-poll-suggests-half-of-european-doctors-are-considering-quitting-uk

TheElementsSong · 28/02/2017 19:49

Good posts on double standards for the UK BigChoc

BigChocFrenzy · 28/02/2017 19:51

The NHS is very dependent on E27 doctors - in some specialities & senior positions, they form up to 25% of nhs surgeons and senior docs.
At least a significant % of those will actually leave and the NHS is desperately short of doctors in many fields.
This will increase waiting times for treatment and surgery

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders
Mistigri · 28/02/2017 20:07

It's very difficult to build a demographic picture of Brits living in the EU because there are many different types, and which type dominates depends where you live. And in some EU countries there is no register of who is here, and even where there is, many don't register.

Here in France there are broadly three types of Brits. In big cities like Paris and near here in Toulouse there are what you might term expat communities - often people who've moved with their work, often educated and wealthy by local standards. There are lots of Britons like this in the area around Blagnac and Colomiers in Toulouse, where Airbus is based. These people are valuable to the French economy and will be courted post-brexit. They won't have to leave.

In less expensive rural areas, like the area where I live, "lifestyle émigrés" predominate - these are a mix of early retirees and pensioners with relatively small incomes, profiting from cheap housing costs, and younger families mostly living off a mix of part-time self-employed work, UK rental income and benefits. Around here, most pay little or no income tax and few would reach the minimum income required for ILR for non EU citizens (UK rental income is not counted as French income for tax purposes). These people are surprisingly numerous - I help run an on-line support group for English speaking families in France and at a guess I would say that at least half fall into this category (those that don't are mainly the ones with French spouses). These people don't contribute much to the economy, though in some cases they are active contributors to their communities.

Then there are the rich retired, usually in the naice bits of France, although sometimes in less fashionable areas where you get more bangs for your bucks. These people will buy their way into whatever post brexit system exists with the help of lawyers if necessary, though they will gripe bitterly about losing their free healthcare.

I'm stereotyping a bit and obviously this doesn't cover everyone - but 90% of the Brits I've met in France fall into one of these three categories, and most of the ones I know personally are in the middle group. These people will, in some cases, be a loss to their communities but their loss would broadly be the taxpayer's gain, so France won't be falling over herself to keep them unless they have French partners or kids (few do).

Badders123 · 28/02/2017 20:19

Dhs cousin is one of the Rich retired group
Brexit won't really affect him or his wife - indeed they bought their house just after the eu referendum

It's a strange thing when john major and George w bush are the voices of reason
^ sentence I never imagined typing

It was my last day at work today
They got me a lovely bouquet 💐

I intend to concentrate on my volunteer roles
I've got an awful feeling volunteers will be badly needed post brexit

BigChocFrenzy · 28/02/2017 20:36

Well done, badders Flowers ** A lot of vulnerable people will be depending on lovely volunteers like you