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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

OP posts:
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unicornsIlovethem · 28/02/2017 14:26

A little bit of good news, again from the FT www.ft.com/content/fbf1b0d8-fd07-11e6-8d8e-a5e3738f9ae4

Arron Banks is alleged in a court case to have been responsible for "serious and widespread" financial failings during his time as chief executive of an insurance company.

Kaija · 28/02/2017 14:43

Interesting. And yet what is making the headlines is his apparent intention to stand against Carswell, which all sounds like utter bollocks frankly. But if it's a distraction device to keep his financial misdemeanours out of the spotlight it seems to be working.

lalalonglegs · 28/02/2017 15:00

Just seen this in the Guardian:

Davis tells cabinet to prepare for 'unlikely' possibility of UK failing to reach deal on Brexit

At cabinet this morning ministers were told to prepare for the “unlikely” possibility that the UK will not be able to agree a Brexit agreement with the EU. This is from the Press Association’s report of the Number 10 lobby briefing.

A Downing Street spokesman said that Theresa May told senior ministers at the cabinet meeting that Britain was looking for a “smooth and orderly” Brexit.

“The message was that we are not going to fail, we are going to make a success of it,” said the spokesman.

“It is going to be difficult but our optimistic view is important.”

David Davis, the Brexit secretary, told cabinet that the government “is tackling what is its most important peacetime agreement” and it was “important that departments understand the challenges ahead”, said the spokesman.

“He set out the need for the government to support a smooth exit from the EU and the need to prepare not just for a negotiated settlement but for the unlikely scenario in which no mutually satisfactory agreement can be reached.”

The spokesman said that Davis’s Department for Exiting the EU was “still building its capabilities” nine months after its creation and would continue to build its capabilities during the negotiation process.

If even the cheerleaders are waking up to the "possibility" of a disorderly exit - Shock Shock Shock

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 15:14

Statistic from Bojo speech, that 1 in 10 British citizens live abroad. 6 million.

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 15:15

What Banks, like Trump is also avoiding is investigation of Russian links to their surprising rise to power.

LurkingHusband · 28/02/2017 15:27

The spokesman said that Davis’s Department for Exiting the EU was “still building its capabilities” nine months after its creation and would continue to build its capabilities during the negotiation process.

But I would expect the rate of change of "building capabilities" to slow with time, not increase ... or are they aiming for an infinite capability ?

LurkingHusband · 28/02/2017 15:44

Statistic from Bojo speech, that 1 in 10 British citizens live abroad. 6 million.

That equivalent to half the population of Bulgaria and Romania Grin

Peregrina · 28/02/2017 15:54

BoJo always did make stuff up, so what's new?

whatwouldrondo · 28/02/2017 15:58

Finally I have a response. My MP should really join the Libdems shouldn't they? I am sure they would if they had not spent the ten years prior to election to the Council in tribal warfare on the floor of the Council chamber. As it is they are going to spend the next two years in an existential crisis I suspect as all their hopes and dreams come to nought, and yes they really do believe in immigration so much they wrote it twice. I suspect that para has been cut and pasted into many letters on the subject from her remain constituents Hmm

"Thank you for your emails about leaving the EU. I apologise for the delay in replying to you - I am afraid I have received a much higher volume of correspondence than usual in recent weeks.

I am pro-immigration and believe very strongly in the UK having an immigration system that is open and welcoming to people who want to come here and work, whether they are from the EU or beyond - our businesses need their skills. I do not believe, however, that public faith in the immigration system will recover until we have some sort of control over who comes into the country from the EU – control of immigration is not the same thing as reducing immigration.

I am pro-immigration and believe very strongly in the UK having an immigration system that is open and welcoming to people who want to come here and work, whether they are from the EU or beyond - our businesses need their skills. I do not believe, however, that public faith in the immigration system will recover until we have some sort of control over who comes into the country from the EU – control of immigration is not the same thing as reducing immigration. I certainly do not engage in scapegoating of immigrants, who should always be welcome in the UK.

Whilst the Prime Minister takes a harder position on immigration than I do, I do not agree that she has embraced xenophobic rhetoric, as you describe. I fear, however, that failure to offer some control of immigration risks inflaming considerably less acceptable sentiment across the country.

On trade, I believe there are huge opportunities for us to trade more with non-EU countries, but it should not be a binary choice. We need the fullest possible access to the EU Single Market – tariff and barrier free – in order to make the best of leaving the EU, and that is what I have and will continue to argue for. The Prime Minister stated very clearly that she wanted this in her recent speech. Securing a full free trade deal with the EU must be the central aim of the negotiations.

We do not have the power to declare unilaterally that we will remain members of the Single Market as this would have to be agreed with the rest of the EU member states and they have made it very clear that we will not be able to remain members without accepting freedom of movement in full.

The detail of the withdrawal process and the eventual deal with the EU can necessarily only be reached through negotiations – and whatever the Government’s position is now, it will have to change and respond to what the EU’s own position is. As such, debate and discussion of the finer points of leaving the EU are not really meaningful until we trigger Article 50 and begin those negotiations."

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 16:01

ron maybe when god has finished making women into hosts, she'll sort the US trade deal.Grin

A 2006 publication from the Institute for Public Policy Research estimated 5.5 million British-born people lived outside the United Kingdom

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_diaspora

He may have accidentally got it right!

Seems we have customers from the basement visiting elsewhere. Evening shift must have started. Wonder how much Arron spends every day?

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 16:01

He may have accidentally got it right Johnson, that is.

Peregrina · 28/02/2017 16:06

We do not have the power to declare unilaterally that we will remain members of the Single Market as this would have to be agreed with the rest of the EU member states and they have made it very clear that we will not be able to remain members without accepting freedom of movement in full.

We do actually. If those MPs could grow a few principles they could say that we are not leaving the EU after all. End of. Freedom of Movement is not the big No No that it's been presented as. The vast majority who come are net contributors; those that don't find work, could be sent back.

Will Farage be getting people out on the streets in protest? He hasn't been able to so far.

Peregrina · 28/02/2017 16:09

The 'visitors' are on the Stop the Silence threads, I believe. Still, I think they knock off at 5pm.

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 16:17

He hasn't been able to so far
A bit like the mentally ill white people who commit race crimes, and assassination, this driver was drunk. Hmm

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/bellingham-crash-car-collision-south-london-mercedes-a7600776.html.

Farage and his thugs have other means at their disposal, not least our basement comrades. Again for a failed business man like Farage and Trump, and a modestly successful one like Banks they seem to have an inexplicable quantity of mysterious money.

missmoon · 28/02/2017 16:27

whatwouldrondo I got something similar from my Tory MP.

This makes me particularly angry: "control of immigration is not the same thing as reducing immigration"

So we are going to dramatically affect our economy, our R&D capacity and our universities, for no change? What is the point of having control over immigration if you're not going to change anything? Just for the "feeling" of control, as in the White Paper?

LadyOhDearOhDear · 28/02/2017 16:27

Anyone seen this?

order-order.com/2017/02/28/libdems-can-give-manchester-gorton-a-go/

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 16:33

LadyOhDearOhDear Wish they'd stop f* around and organise a remain lib/lab/ SNP remain coalition yesterday and get down to work.

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 16:44

Badders Grin, have you seen these? Tiny trumps.

i.redd.it/pqhlx6b4urgy.jpg

howabout · 28/02/2017 17:06

woman that is never ever going to happen. What is the point of the Lib / Dems forming a Remain coalition with Labour if the whole point of them being adamantly Remain is to win back votes from Labour. Also, you should look up coverage of Sadiq's interventions in the Scottish Labour conference at the weekend if you want to gauge the even more unlikeliness of SNP joining said coalition.

Would love to see someone in Labour offer it just to see how Tiny Tim and Nippy managed to wriggle out from under it Grin

RedAndYellowPeppers · 28/02/2017 17:18

Statistic from Bojo speech, that 1 in 10 British citizens live abroad. 6 million
Is it not worrying to see so many British people doing their best to leave the country if this was such a nice place to live in? 10% of the population is a hell of lot.
Should we feel ashamed of all the burden we are putting on those countries who have our immigrants?? Wink

RedAndYellowPeppers · 28/02/2017 17:20

missmoon yes for the feeling of being in control just as brexit was about the feeling of being sovereign, never mid that the uk had never lost its sovereignty in the first place....

howabout · 28/02/2017 17:21

Guido is always good for a laugh an an alt view but never forget the raison d'etre is to bring about the demise of the Labour party.

I may have to eat my hat Paddy Ashdown style if Labour don't benefit from a Burnham bounce in Manchester. Hopefully with Khan in the South and Burnham in the North Labour can start making more of a coherent noise.

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 17:24

You are probably right howabout

There's such a lack of selflessness and historical perspective amongst today's crop of MPs. Inter party snits are an unaffordable luxury atm. There is no virtue in holding on to (NS, Khan) grudges at a time like this.

It's a crisis. Crises need solutions. Once Banks Le Pen and Bannon are running the show a couple of years down the line, there will be no opposition parties.