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Brexit

Westministenders: Tell Boris it should be more Stokenders and Copenders

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/02/2017 16:17

FINALLY this is the thread of the Copeland and Stoke By-Elections.
In the next few days we will be subjected to a whole pile of analysis from the media most of which will completely miss the point, and will waffle on about Brexit as if it’s the only issue ever and this is what matters to everyone.

Its bollocks.

This is the ‘Westminster Bubble’ that doesn’t report what is on the ground. It includes the media and the politicians who ran into town for the election, never to set foot there ever again. In one case pulling faces at the local children. In another desperately trying to prove how local he is.
Is it any wonder some think that all politicians are all the same?

You can learn far more about what really matters by reading the Stoke Sentinel and The Whitehaven News than reading The Sun or The Mail, those great champions of Leave. (Fancy that local papers being more relevant to a community than a national ones).

The by-election in Stoke has been a particular display of pond life style campaigning. We’ve had Hillsborough, ‘dodgy addresses’, arrest of a candidate, text messages saying you’ll go to hell for voting ‘wrong’, letters that say that MPs voted differently to the way they did, an activist being hunted by the police for trying to enter someone’s house and then pissing on her property, crying candidates, faked photos on twitter, dodgy sexist tweets from candidates dragged up, photographs with known far right activists, egg throwing and vandalism.

The word that keep coming out? Not ‘Brexit’. But ‘Change’.

What have the main parties in either election really added in terms of positive change?

Tomorrow’s weather will not help matters. The chances are that it will keep turnout down, making those postal votes more important. It will drive out the angry to vote whilst the apathetic and hopelessly disillusioned will stay home. The result will not be decided by the 60%+ of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. It will be decided by a fraction of that.

Someone has to lose. There will be political blood shed. Friday will see the political blame and finger pointing I doubt anyone will get it.
The real story is about how few people will vote and how few people think their vote counts for anything.

Immigrants and ‘benefit scroungers’ are not to blame for this. Nor is it even the ‘cultural elite’. Politicians have a duty to the whole country, to do the best for them all. Not to merely do the ‘will of the people’. Popularism does not help people. It merely starts a runaway train of the tyranny of the majority. You don’t give children sweets because they demand them. You educate children, and nurture them. If they are unaware of real issues, you make sure they learn and you explain why you are making unpopular decisions honestly, rather than feeding them a crock of shit. Because that’s your job as a PM, as MP, as a MEP, as an elected mayor, as a county councillor, as a borough councillor, as a parish councillor. To step up.

We need politicians with the back bone to do the right thing for all, rather than just worrying about their electoral strategy and how to con people to vote for you this time. We need politicians to actually take the responsibility of office rather than see it as a career opportunity.

The issues that matter most to people ultimately are not about the EU. They are not about immigration. It’s too easy to blame on immigration rather than tackle the infrastructure problems of the country and admit where you have gone wrong in the past. It’s easier to drive an hysterical fear of terrorism and cultural values being in danger from an enemy far away rather than look at who is really responsible.

If people don’t think that others are unaware of the problem, and don’t care about them and how they are being thrown under the bus, they are wrong. Plenty of people on both sides of the EU referendum debate get it.

Plenty on both sides don’t and are indulging the fantasy land excuses for domestic political failure.

The question is how do you get that message out, in a way that makes a difference and does change things? How do you break the stereotypes of the stupid and the patronising? How do you get people like the Nathan from Stoke to be heard and to believe in politics. Not believe in Brexit. Believe that politics can help them.

OP posts:
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RedAndYellowPeppers · 27/02/2017 21:14

TheElement yes in a British POV, it will always be the EU fault anyway. Much easier to deal with this way.

However, I thought that TM was still trying to get some sort of agreement with the EU to not find herself with nothing at the end of the two years. And acting like this is NT going to help those negociations.
Unless of course she doesn't care .....

woman12345 · 27/02/2017 21:17

I think either way, even though EU countries have been by and large lovely to British residents( and providing many older residents with a cheap, healthy and nicer place to live). The absolute opposite is true now here. This has the makings of a humanitarian and diplomatic mess/ crisis, for all the citizens.

Mistigri · 27/02/2017 21:21

The French system is less rigid than the Home Office because it's administered locally - but that means there is plenty of room for random decisions and varying approaches depending on where you live. Good luck if you're in a FN stronghold like the eastern end of the Med coast....

Splitting up families is not particularly relevant to many british families here, because potentially none of the family would have the right to remain. (But parents of kids with French nationality won't be removed, nor spouses of French nationals.)

Where people are going to struggle here is with the language - many have very rudimentary french and find dealing with the bureaucracy hard. I can't imagine our tenants - middle aged British couple with teenage son living off benefits and cash in hand work - remaining in France if there is a hard brexit, they don't have the money or language skills. And there are many, many like them.

NinonDeLanclos · 27/02/2017 21:24

Bloody good speech, thanks for posting it in full.

All of the good sense, practicality, calm and wide grasp that is distinctly lacking in any of the Brexiteer MPs.

Mistigri · 27/02/2017 21:25

I agree with woman that it is going to be a godawful mess. We are OK (have French kids and we're both in work), as are my two best British friends (one has a french son, the other is married to a German) - and I am very thankful for this and feel very fortunate - but I fear that the future of many of the people I know is less secure.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/02/2017 21:29

Misti Yes, the likely effect of the sinking pound on pensioners is overlooked:

Even index-linked pensions can't keep up
Anyone on a small to moderate fixed pension - that maybe looked very comfortable 10-15 years ago - may find their standard of living falling sharply.
However, returning to the UK might mean unaffordable house prices / rent and an increase in the cost of living

Also, health care for UK expat pensioners is paid by the NHS - BUT only when they reach state pension age, which may be years after (forced) retirement
In the interim, some of those younger pensioners are NHS "tourists" !

Unless this healthcare agreement is continued, all except the very well off expats may have to return when chronic conditions set in
(There is a 3 or 6 months UK residence requirement before they can officially use the NHS again)

NinonDeLanclos · 27/02/2017 21:32

A case in point is an old friend of my mum's. She might qualify as a wealthy retiree in that she has a nice house near Aix with a swimming pool, but her income is actually pretty low, been hit by the fall of Sterling, and she has no idea whether she'll be able to stay, what will happen to healthcare etc.

woman12345 · 27/02/2017 21:38

Meanwhile Brexit business rates aren't going down well:
www.hemeltoday.co.uk/news/pub-landlord-s-threat-to-bar-mp-david-gauke-over-business-rate-remarks-1-7832146

woman12345 · 27/02/2017 21:41

So the NHS 'tourists' will have been born in Britain just after the last war. Strange times.

Badders123 · 27/02/2017 21:49

It makes me worry for my mum
She couldn't cope with the stress of having to leave
She has lived - and paid tax - in the uk since she was 18 - doing the sorts of menial jobs uk citizens deemed beneath them
She is now 71 and in poor health
She is a home owner which goes in her favour I guess and her only benefit is her Pension
She has some savings
How insane she might be forced to leave - unless the ROI will still have a special deal after brexit?

woman12345 · 27/02/2017 21:49

Flowers Badders

ElenaGreco123 · 27/02/2017 22:26

Badders more Flowers

It is very interesting to find out that British immigrants in France also need benefits. I hope there will be a solution "that works for everyone" (to quote TM. At the moment all government documents are full of this phrase and the hypocrisy annoys me.)

woman12345 · 27/02/2017 22:46

Wonderful news:

Change.org UK‏ @UKChange 13m
More
BREAKING VICTORY: Student Shiromini and her mother are released and will not be deported

woman12345 · 27/02/2017 22:47

So, nearly 100,000 in petition, for Sri Lankan girl and her mum, who have been released, when it feels like protest doesn't work................. Smile

Badders123 · 27/02/2017 23:04

Sigh
I wonder if the uk citizens delirious about brexit would have been happy to clean pubs, do night shifts and wipe arses for £2.50 an hour like my mum did for years

God I'm so fucking depressed

GloriaGaynor · 27/02/2017 23:42

I could be wrong but I'd think if there was one country that will have a special deal wrt citizens reciprocal rights to remain here and there it will be ROI. Not optimistic about anywhere else.

That won't solve the border problem, but it might help your mum.

VallarMorghulis · 28/02/2017 00:09

@woman12345 and yet only 28,948 signatures on the petition to reform the permanent residency process in this country, which has been going on for months. And people say they care about the fate on non-British EU nationals resident in this country? This would indicate that's not true...

Mistigri · 28/02/2017 05:43

I could be wrong but I'd think if there was one country that will have a special deal wrt citizens reciprocal rights to remain here and there it will be ROI. Not optimistic about anywhere else.

I completely agree with this.

Re whether people care about the rights of EU citizens, I think there has been a hardening of attitudes to immigration generally - see the Singapore deportation thread, and compare and contrast with the one about the white South African woman last year.

It's like half the population has had an empathy amputation.

Motheroffourdragons · 28/02/2017 06:42

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 06:53

VallarMorghulis thanks, signed, hope everyone can spread it around.

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 07:09

Leaflets for open Britain, this Saturday:
www.open-britain.co.uk/campaign_leaflets?utm_campaign=activist_10&utm_medium=email&utm_source=in

HashiAsLarry · 28/02/2017 09:28

badders Flowers
similar for my DM too
Though on the point that the CTA with ROI may still exist I'm sure badders can agree on just how much we're looking forward to everything being our fault again. The 70s and 80s were such a fun time with that.

Badders123 · 28/02/2017 09:40

Oh yeah hashi
I'm looking forward to the spitting and being called paddy again

woman12345 · 28/02/2017 10:14

Posted on other threads, but interesting article about the last time, and aesthetic control and fascism, ( don't want to disrupt thread, but again the whole trans versus born women(? not sure of right term)
thing relevant here.
www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/how-to-spot-a-nazi-a-certain-style-and-a-taste-for-torture-a7594351.html