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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

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RedToothBrush · 10/02/2017 00:05

Ding Ding Ding.

The Annual Labour Leadership Contest is gearing up again?:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/09/clive-lewis-sounds-support-challenge-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader/
Clive Lewis 'sounds out support' to challenge Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader

Lisa Bloom ‏*@LisaBloom*

Best part of appeals ruling: finding that YES, IT'S A MUSLIM BAN. Trump said so during campaign, thus probable religious discrimination.

The State argue that the Executive Order violates the Establishment and Equal Protection Clauses because it was intended to disfavour Muslims. In support of this argument, the States have offered evidence of numerous statements by the President about his intent to implement a "Muslim ban" as well as evidence they claim suggest that the Executive Order was intended to be that ban, including sections 5(b) and 5(e) of the Order.

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Peregrina · 10/02/2017 00:07

I thought the Fylde area was quite posh? If so, I would have expected it to be natural Tory territory. Not had too good a night, have they? I think they might reasonably have hoped to have got 4 seats tonight, especially as Theresa May is apparently so far ahead in the opinion polls.

RedToothBrush · 10/02/2017 00:12

Danny Zuker ‏*@DannyZuker*
.@POTUS Stop me if you've heard this one before: A conservative, a moderate & a liberal judge walk into a court & agree you're a buffoon!

The Conservatives will be disappointed. Not just for loosing two seats but that in the UKIP gain will be sore. Their Candidate was a Kipper Defector. It did not work.

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RedToothBrush · 10/02/2017 00:23

Stanley Cohen ‏*@StanleyCohenLaw*
With his arrogance and stupidity this could easily end up with him being held in contempt.

Hillary Clinton ‏*@HillaryClinton* (verified account)
3-0

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mathanxiety · 10/02/2017 02:38

Bored:
Again, do you all really think the Government, with all their MPs and members and civil servants have just said 'Take it away Theresa, you're on'?
Why did Ivan Rogers resign?
Could it have been that his views were not welcomed by certain parties?
A case of an untenable position?

boredofbrexit Thu 09-Feb-17 13:58:26
Bloody hell. Letwin has just called for a debate on abolition of Lords. No further news
This is because they were showing a disinclination to dance to the populist Theresa May tune.

Are you surprised to see what happens when individual civil servants or even institutions that are foundations of British democracy dare to go against the populist current that Theresa May and her cronies have harnessed?

whatwouldrondo · 10/02/2017 05:44

After messing up the Putin call Trump has done an about face and come over strangely diplomatic in a call to Xi, not wanting that war just yet then..... m.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2069798/trump-reaffirms-one-china-policy-surprise-phone-call-xi

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 06:33

I was about to say, let's hope that Trump is impeached and then May might realise that she's backed the wrong horse again. But we would then get Pence and she might go to the front of the queue again as far as trade deals go. With Trump, I doubt if any trade deals with anyone will be made, the way he is going on.

The Economist article that someone linked to talked about how negotiations with the rest of the EU have already led to rows between UK civil servants and the rest, and effectively the UK is negotiating as though it's an outsider. It doesn't look good for the relationship that May says she wants. I have to assume she actually wants to leave on the worst terms possible, so that she can blame the rest of the EU.

PattyPenguin · 10/02/2017 07:04

Post Brexit we will have wait longer for new drugs. Because we will have our own separate assessment process, but will be a tiny market compared with the EU and the US, manufacturers will prioritise those markets and won't bother with the UK for up to 2 years.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38922366

TheElementsSong · 10/02/2017 07:09

Post Brexit we will have wait longer for new drugs.

We won't be able to afford new drugs, the fictitious £350 million Big Red Lie Bus notwithstanding.

Because we will have our own separate assessment process

OTOH we won't need a proper assessment process because (a) who needs experts and (b) we're just going to decide based on Feelz.

Motheroffourdragons · 10/02/2017 07:10

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

PattyPenguin · 10/02/2017 07:17

And immigration will barely be reduced at all, according to a new think tank. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/10/brexit-will-cause-vanishingly-small-fall-in-net-migration-report

A snippet from the Grauniad's story: "Liam Fox, the international trade minister, accepted last week he did not know of any new free trade deal that did not also include liberalisation of migration rules between the two countries signing such agreements. Australia and India have already indicated they will seek preferential access for their workers as part of a free trade deal."

Looks like Stephen Crabb was right. Loathsome, but in this case right.

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 07:19

Did The Times support Remain?

That might explain their publishing the report above. Didn't Farage and Kate Hoey pretend that fishing was important? It will be disappointing to see that it's only regarded as medium priority.

CeciledeVolanges · 10/02/2017 07:22

Cross post, sorry.

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 07:32

Cecile's first link, about the Dubs amendment has a petition to sign. Not that Theresa May and her heartless cabinet take any notice of petitions. It's a said day for this country, when we can't find room for a relative handful of child refugees. But this fits so much with Theresa May's narrative that all foreigners are bad.

PattyPenguin · 10/02/2017 07:42

The Times backed Remain, as did all the broadsheets/heavyweights except the Torygraph. All the tabloids except the Mirror and the Mail on Sunday backed Leave. It was a matter of reader demographics.

LadyOhDearOhDear · 10/02/2017 08:17

Did anyone watch the BBC documentary last night (by Katya Adler) on the EU? I found it fascinating and scary at the same time. It does appear that the EU is teetering with Southern European countries drowning under debt and Northern European countries starting to reject the immigration policies of Merkel from 2014. I highly recommend it - it is a sobering programme that shows that this issue is way more complicated than the in/out lens we are now viewing it from. Her final comment was that we may not have an EU to exit in 2 years time as there are so many challenges ahead. I suspect that a large number of people voted out because they thought it better to walk away from this (despite the ramifications) rather than try and get reform which has not been forthcoming in the past.

The Dutch elections seem to be very important - a strong showing from Wilders might bolster support for other far right movements in France and Italy.

Also see this report from Chatham House re: opinions on immigration in Europe
www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/What-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration

A situation becoming more complicated.

Re: banking sector, I found this report from the House of Lords committee looking at the EU/City interesting and I listened to some of the debate on the HoC channel yesterday (I must get out more). I think these reports are more informative than BBC soundbites. The summary at the beginning is worth reading.

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/81/81.pdf

Tanith · 10/02/2017 08:27

"I used to admire Diane Abbott - she seemed to have a mind and principles of her own.

Now her hypocrisy and cowardice just reinforces everything that I think is wrong with the Labour Party."

Diane Abbott regulary receives racial abuse, hate mail and death threats, as are other MPs. Elected politicians talk openly about treason and repercussions. Last year a Labour MP was shot dead in the street.

Hypocrisy and cowardice? Or genuine fear for their families and themselves?

It's easy to type words on a computer, or to think we'd stand up publicly for our principles. Would we in the face of death threats, when we've seen our colleague murdered? If our daughters were threatened with rape? I see on the march threads that some won't march or bring children because they are afraid of trouble from opposing factions - are they cowards and hypocrites, too?

Oh, and there have always been politicians and journalists on MN and of course some are paid to be here. Michael Gove's wife was here at one time, maybe still is under another name.

GloriaGaynor · 10/02/2017 08:33

There are different kinds of courage and different kinds of cowardice.

Many female MPs and journalists have to deal with abuse, death threats, rape threats etc.

What Abbott lacks is what used to be called moral courage.

TheElementsSong · 10/02/2017 08:33

Tanith 8:27 that's a terrible reflection on a subset of Leave supporters isn't it? Sad

Peregrina · 10/02/2017 08:39

Remember what this sorry crowd promised? Look how they voted.

Oh yes, I know that on 24th June they said that they 'could' support the NHS, not that they 'would', and it was 'just an example' of what they might do with the money.

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.
TheElementsSong · 10/02/2017 08:41

That's a bit like the sorry crowd who said they really care about the plight of EU citizens in the UK and wanted them to have certainty and it was the mean old EU preventing it. Then went and voted against that.

prettybird · 10/02/2017 08:41

You're quite right Gloria. Of course I deplore threats made towards her (and against any female MP/public figure/woman who put her head above the parapet).

What I also deplore is her lack of moral fibre. At least other shadow cabinet ministers (including one who was a woman of colour) had the courage of their convictions and resigned.

She is a hypocrite.

GloriaGaynor · 10/02/2017 08:42

Sky is reporting that the UK divorce settlement will be £48bn, and no trade negotiations until it's agreed. (Please note unreliable source).

According to them this was decided at a meeting on Monday and France and Germany wanted £59bn.

news.sky.com/story/brexit-negotiator-michel-barnier-set-to-demand-uk-pays-836457bn-to-leave-eu-10761933

WrongTrouser · 10/02/2017 08:58

Is there some reason why Mrs Gove shouldn't be allowed to post on MN?