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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

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RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 14:39

whatwould, I agree that the 'left behind' feeling was very much a part of the EU referendum vote.

But this section of the population is not politically active or interested at any other time with the inevitable situation where the agenda has effectively been hijacked by 'elites' (oh the irony).

Their alignment with Trump makes it more obvious that it would otherwise have been, but its troubling.

What bothers me most, is that women are less likely to vote and less likely to be confident in their political views.

We need to really fight this as much as fighting against a particular issue or cause.

I personally have issues with 'feminism' in the past. The term is one I don't like. I have many arguments on MN against people who take a much more radical approach which have found alienating and greatly counter productive at times. I feel now I am at risk of being labelled as radical, when actually I'm fairly moderate. Again, its more to do with the Overton window being shifted than my views becoming more extreme.

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Peregrina · 07/02/2017 14:43

Breaking news from the BBC:
Brexit Minister David Jones says that there will be a vote to cover the withdrawal arrangements but also the future relationship with the EU.

He also confirms that the government will bring forward a motion on the final agreement to be approve by both Houses of Parliament.

He says the government "expects and intends" this vote to happen before the European Parliament votes in the agreement.

That is a huge and very important concession, says Shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer, who began the debate saying "there must be a vote before the deal is concluded".

If this means that Theresa May has now discovered what Parliamentary Sovereignity means, that is good news.

Peregrina · 07/02/2017 14:44

But Ken Clarke and others want to see the detail of the concession.

ElenaGreco123 · 07/02/2017 14:44

From the Family Justice Council

Pre-nups have become increasingly prominent, but for most people they will not be relevant on divorce. This is because the current law says that a pre-nup will only be followed by the court if the parties entered into it voluntarily and fully understanding what they were agreeing to, and even then it will not be followed if in the circumstances which exist at the point of divorce it would not be fair to hold them to the agreement. The courts will not regard an agreement as fair for these purposes if it does not meet each parties’ needs and the needs of the children. The sorts of couples for whom this guide is intended – that is to say, the majority of couples – are ones for whom meeting needs is the central factor on divorce. It is only in cases where there are plenty of assets available to meet both spouses’ needs, and then a surplus left over, that a pre-nup is likely to have real value. A pre-nup can be used to protect that surplus so that it does not have to be shared with the other spouse. For the majority of couples, there is no surplus remaining after needs have been met, and so nothing in relation to which a pre-nup can make any difference. The one exception to this is where an individual might want to have a pre-nup to say that a specific item of property should stay with them in the event of divorce – an agreement of that type might be respected, provided that the court did not have to use that asset in order to meet the other spouse’s needs. But if there are enough other assets available to do that, then the pre-nup can protect the particular item of property.

www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/fjc-financial-needs-april-16-final.pdf

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 14:45

Government have made a concession over the amendment mentioned by Fasial Islam, MPs will be given vote on final Brexit deal before it is signed.

So have avoided a government defeat.

(in effect amendment has been added, though Labour are pushing to get this in writing to fully understand what this concession actually amounts to and when the timing of this will be).

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whatwouldrondo · 07/02/2017 14:49

Red I agree that the feminist movement became very anal and alienating. However I think young people are back to where my generation of women were in the 70s, focused on equality as a unifying goal. There was a lot of debate on here about the Woman's March and the trans agenda beforehand and we were concerned but on the day there was no sign of that sort of discourse/ discord. There wasn't even a generation gap, and I speak as someone who has had to cope with being the only over 50 student in a university class of under 30s that has wrestled with that. It was very inclusive.

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 14:57

Prenups are not modern.

They are a throw back.

I have one dated 1812 I have been working on in DH's family history.

They favour women of a higher social class, with higher status and means in the first place.

It means women of lower class are more likely to be 'held hostage' in a marriage especially if they 'marry up'.

They are also not even legally enforceable under UK law I believe.

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Peregrina · 07/02/2017 15:04

So have avoided a government defeat.
Thus putting herself and the Tory party first.

lalalonglegs · 07/02/2017 15:08

Found you. Thanks again to Red and all the other contributors Flowers.

Grifone · 07/02/2017 15:15

Thank you for that link Mistigiri. As some other commentators have said it looks as if Ireland is going to suffer significantly as a result of Brexit.

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 15:19

Duncan Weldon ‏*@DuncanWeldon*
A huge falling out between the Trump administration & the WTO seems like a likely scenario in the next 2 years. End result likely to... 1/2
... be a diminished WTO. Worth thinking about in terms of UK falling back on "WTO terms" as a Brexit Plan B. 2/2

Brexit is actually an incentive for Trump to have a WTO tantrum.

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RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 15:28

Diane Abbott has a migraine and didn't vote last week.

Nick Boles has posted this today:
www.facebook.com/nickbolesmp/photos/a.912097612249646.1073741828.521984534594291/1118721188253953/?type=3&theater

Anna Soubry's reaction to John Redwood speech

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.
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woman12345 · 07/02/2017 15:32

ElenaGreco123 thanks for that, even if they are rare, they will be enforceable with the new: Divorce (Financial Provision) Bill.
And with the way things are going with legal aid, and recent high stakes divorce cases, I am guessing many women will no longer be able to afford divorce if they have kids. Just a guess though.Grin

Great news on the vote Peregrina hope it means real scrutiny and accountability.

woman12345 · 07/02/2017 15:36

But Jones has explicitly said that this is not what the government is offering. Ministers will only give MPs and peers a ‘take it or leave it vote’, with the result that if the deal gets rejected, the UK will crash out of the UK anyway, defaulting to trading with the EU on WTO terms.
Worthless vote?

Motheroffourdragons · 07/02/2017 15:39

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

woman12345 · 07/02/2017 15:40

Conservative rebels were not immediately satisfied by the concession offered by David Jones.
But tory rebels are leading the charge for democracy. Grin

venetiaswirl · 07/02/2017 15:44

Thank you from a continual lurker for this series of such thoughtful and well rounded threads. They really provide a beacon of optimism at a time where we are in danger of being drowned out by the Brexit bullies and the depressing road that the country is travelling along.
Thank you Red. Flowers

LurkingHusband · 07/02/2017 15:47

.

CarelessWispas · 07/02/2017 15:48
Wine
woman12345 · 07/02/2017 15:51

@CarolineLucas
The Govt treating Parliament with contempt. MPs must not be duped - they're offering a 'choice' between an extreme brexit and a cliff edge.

HashiAsLarry · 07/02/2017 15:55

So TM has finally found a way to place the blame on someone other than herself. Now she can cock this up as much as she wants and parliament get the choice of accepting crap or jumping off the cliff. Twas their fault your honour, they voted for it.

WifeofDarth · 07/02/2017 16:27

Still following. Thanks Red and the gang

Peregrina · 07/02/2017 16:29

So TM has finally found a way to place the blame on someone other than herself.

Isn't that always her way? It's never her fault.

missmoon · 07/02/2017 16:47

I think the key with this "concession" is whether A50 is revocable. If it is, then if MPs reject the deal, Theresa May would surely face a vote of no confidence. So whether of not there would then be a renegotiation isn't really up to her, is it?

woman12345 · 07/02/2017 16:53

Trump doesn't read EOs because he can't.

Now I really do have compassion for the man, the audience laughs, but it's just sad and deadly dangerous.
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