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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

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Peregrina · 09/02/2017 19:41

Tory councillor retweets a racist message about Diane Abbott

The parish councillor, who is also a school governor, said he had lived in a number of foreign countries and that he has a black relative who was in the US army.

Re my previous post - the usual get out clause. I'm not really racist...... oh yes you are mate. And you Theresa May and Amber Rudd can take some of the blame for this - because you have set the tone for your party.

WrongTrouser · 09/02/2017 19:45

Peregrina

YouGov have asked the question. 76% of leave voters want EU nationals to be allowed to stay as compared to 85% of remain voters. Ok, only a poll, but it gives some idea (and I believe there were earlier polls showing around the same figures) - unless you have any contradictory evidence?

yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/18/public-back-brexit-plan-think-eu-will-nix-it/

Mistigri · 09/02/2017 19:54

YouGov have asked the question

This sort of polling is very sensitive to the question asked, and to the respondants' willingness to tell the truth. It may be that people are quite shy about admitting that they want foreigners sent home. After all, it's not so long ago that this was an opinion that few people would voice in polite society. It may also be that you would get different answers if you asked about (say) French city workers and Romanian agricultural workers, rather than EU citizens generally.

Peregrina · 09/02/2017 19:54

Wrong - so YouGov ask a handful of voters, and from that it's extrapolated that the majority of the country thinks the same way. Yes, well, this is May's style of arithmetic. 16 million Remainers turns into 65 Million are behind her.

Meanwhile a Czech Minister has accused her of lying, or as we now have to call it 'alternative facts'.

Prouza accused Theresa May of lying about the impact of EU migrants on Britain.

Czechoslovakia managed to get divorced without much fuss. I believe we should strive for the similar effect here. Our legacy for future generations cannot be a world where the clock turned back a century and everybody is an enemy. However, we cannot achieve this if we continue to make unfounded claims about each other. I am speaking about the continuing and growing aggression towards other nationals, especially citizens from central Europe, in the UK. As I mentioned at the beginning, time and time again, numbers have shown that EU citizens contribute more to Britain’s economy than they take out. Even so, this alternative fact, or let’s call it what it is – a lie, once again re-surfaced in Theresa May’s speech. Let’s move beyond such tactics and build our new relationship on facts and respect, not populism and lies.

And she will come running back telling tales that the nasty EU won't give her what she wants.

Peregrina · 09/02/2017 19:57

The extract was from the BBC's Politics Live BTW.

Let’s move beyond such tactics and build our new relationship on facts and respect, not populism and lies.

How can anyone not agree with that?

WrongTrouser · 09/02/2017 20:08

Here's another poll - 77% of leave voters supporting all EU nationals being allowed to stay.

www.cityam.com/247932/brits-overwhelmingly-back-giving-eu-migrants-right-stay-uk

But obviously feel free to ignore all these attempts to gauge the population's views - I'm sure your hunches give a much more accurate picture.

CathKidding · 09/02/2017 20:22

"Cath Can I request please that you either explicitly say you think one of more of the leave posters on this thread is paid to post, or stop insinuating that this is the case?"

Fair enough, I will back out.

I am intrigued, however, at your (and the other Leave posters on this thread) persistence but won't mention it again because it doesn't add anything useful to the actual discussion, apologies.

I wondered out loud, iyswim, who might have the stamina and go to great length in terms of time and effort to argue for Brexit in this way. On a little albeit superb thread in corner of MN.

As I said I suppose I admire that kind of stamina but I remain befuddled because 'you won' so you really ought to be relaxed, celebrating and maybe focusing on coming up with workable ideas how to make it all work, with the economy, the peace of our country and our relationship with the rest of the world. Instead some of these Brexit arguments read as if Brexit hadn't been decided yet, it has been decided (almost) and it is happening. No point in throwing any PR at it now.

boredofbrexit · 09/02/2017 20:31

No Gina there's not.

boredofbrexit · 09/02/2017 20:32

Oops wrong thread silly me. Must be all that celebrating, put me all tickerty boo

Inkanta · 09/02/2017 20:32

Cath - your angle is quite refreshing. I like you Smile

CathKidding · 09/02/2017 20:41

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BigChocFrenzy · 09/02/2017 20:46

Trump has the lowest net approval rating - 0 % - since records began, for a President just starting his term.
Americans traditionally rally round and mostly feel hopeful out any new POTUS
Even George W had a +32% rating at this stage

So Trump's popularism is not very popular - he lost the popular vote - but maybe just very intense

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.
TheElementsSong · 09/02/2017 20:46

The People Have Spoken.

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.
Peregrina · 09/02/2017 20:48

I question opinion polls - they have not exactly had the best track record in recent months. I would be delighted if the majority of Leave voters wanted EU citizens to stay, but it's Theresa May making the decisions. Her form at the Home Office and now, IMO suggests an almost pathological hatred of Immigration. Whether she is trying to appease the UKIPers both the real ones and the ones in her party, is something that only she can say. I suspect that her background in comfortable Oxfordshire villages did not expose her to much immigration.

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 21:22

I'm no fan of Diane Abbott, but FFS.

The thing that gets me about that story is that the LOCAL PARTY DEFENDED IT. So they saw nothing wrong with it until the National Party said something. That's what used to happen with UKIP itself half the time...

Re: this 'moderate racism thing' in really white places where there is no immigration and their mate/doctor/etc, is always one of the 'good ones' I find it bizarre. Its almost like the 'bad immigrant' is this urban myth. No one actually can name one or say where they are. It is most odd. Almost as if they've been stirred up to believe something but have never come across it in their real lives.

Anyway tonight's by-elections:

Fairfield North (Cotswolds)
CON
Its Con, LD and Green on the ballot. (No one else) Could be one to keep an eye on. The trend would suggest LD win here.

Great and Little Oakley (Tendring, Essex)
Ind (not defending)
This is UKIP land close to Carswell's seat.
The Con candidate is a UKIP defector. There is also a UKIP, Lab and LD candidate (he got 55 votes last time).
So its a good test of how CON/UKIP are shaping up against each other.

Waterside (North Norfolk)
CON
The counsellor got the boot for not turning up to any meetings for 6 months. This is Norman Lamb's constituency - its strong Leave with an old population. The Lib Dems previously held the two seats in the area. Will be interesting to see what goes on here. My gut feeling is the LDs will gain here but we'll see.

CON, LD, LAB and UKIP standing.

Kingswood and Hazel Leys (Corby)
LAB
Again counsellor given the boot for not turning up for 6 months
Its one of the most working class areas in the country, but has high level of immigration and a young population.
LAB, Greens and CONs standing.
Can't see much happening here, unless every goes screw labour and jumps to the Greens. Which seems unlikely.

St Johns (Fylde)
Fylde Ratepayers
Again, a 6 month no shower. However the counsellor is standing for re-election citing agoraphobia. (!)
Apparently no show candidates in council by-elections do normally get back in when it happens, so its not beyond the realms of possibility.
So FR, Con, LAB and Green standing.

Fuck knows what will happen here. Why the fuck do people vote people back in for non attendance ?! Are the other options just that bad?

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RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 21:30

Motion of No Confidence on Bercow. Done by Duddridge. Apparently about half the tories aren't happy.

The Rees-Mogg fan club no doubt.

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RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 21:39

You know the Gove Trump interview?

There was someone else in the room....

Rupert Murdoch.

(Being reported in tomorrow's FT)

www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ga-man-apparent-white-supremacy-ties-arrested-ricin-article-1.2968318
Georgia man with apparent white supremacist connections arrested for having ricin

A Georgia man who has shown support for white supremacist groups is being investigated by the FBI after authorities say he drove himself to a hospital for exposure to ricin, a deadly toxin.

Er what?

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GloriaGaynor · 09/02/2017 21:41

Oh yeah, the Murdoch story was reported in the ft this morning.

LineysRun · 09/02/2017 21:43

I just came on here late to say thank you for the recognition of the Munich Post.

SemiPermanent · 09/02/2017 21:50

I'm not particularly a Diane Abbot fan, but I don't dislike her.
I found the #PrayForDiane stuff really funny.

However, the nastier abuse she has had and continues to get on a daily basis is horrific.

It's particularly shameful that a person in a position of authority (the Tory councillor) felt it was completely fine to retweet what he did - and beyond awful that his local party defended him.

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 21:57

Tonight's QT from Torquay

Claire Perry CON - who called hard core Brexiteers Jihadis this week.
Owen Smith LAB - not Owen Jones. The man we've all forgotten.
Peter Whittle UKIP - London Assembly member. Deputy UKIP Leader. No I've never heard of him before either
Billy Bragg - Musician. Corbyn fan. Well he was. Then he was critical. Then said he still supported him.
Ann Widdecombe - Former Strictly Contestant

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LineysRun · 09/02/2017 22:26

Billy Bragg might be interesting.

I've got the vinyl single of Between The Wars. He was the future of Labour supporters applauding-from-the-sidelines once.

prettybird · 09/02/2017 22:32

I used to admire Diane Abbott - she seemed to have a mind and principles of her own.

Now her hypocrisy and cowardice just reinforces everything that I think is wrong with the Labour Party. Angry

Motheroffourdragons · 09/02/2017 22:35

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RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 22:41

Imani Gandy ‏*@AngryBlackLady*
trump issued three more executive orders today regarding law enforcement. One is about preventing violence against law enforcement.
Another creates a task force to reduce crime.
Yay storm troopers!
And the third ramps up the 'war on drugs'.
Sessions/trump are going to declare BLM a terrorist group.
Just wait for it.
They're going to make protesting a form of economic terrorism so protestors can be charged with felonies.
We're going to get a national Blue Lives Matter bill.
We're going to get national stop and frisk.
This is going to be a nightmare for Black people.
The next large BLM protest is going to be a bloodbath.
Violence against police will be a hate crime.
I could go on, but I think I'm just going to go lay down in a rain puddle outside.

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