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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

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RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 11:51

SapphireStrange, the Wiki of the Members of the House of Lords has a list of Lords which also has a line about why they are Lords and/or why their special interest is

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_House_of_Lords

I would suggest focusing on a particular issue and finding people who perhaps might have special concern about that issue or a Lord with a particular regional interest (eg someone who was formerly an MP in your area).

I think its worthwhile being specific about particular things rather than being too general at this point: so even if its not relevant for this stage of the progress it can rear its head later during the 'Great' Repeal Act.

Make it more than just 'moaning' about Brexit, but have hard and fast concerns that need to be addressed and the Lords can use as a case to think about the National Interest.

And yes, I'd say crossbenchers and Conservatives are good targets. Don't just go for the obviously Lab/Lib Dem ones who you can perhaps rely on to be more sympathetic anyway.

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howabout · 09/02/2017 11:51

Absolutely agree with Wes Streeting approach to the Brexit future bored. None of his solutions are rocket science so the only question is why are the so called progressive liberals so reluctant to get on with delivering if not naked self interest?

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 11:56

Perhaps because delivering Brexit is a total regression?

At least that is the deliberate intention of the significant and influential minority who want it.

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RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 11:59

And howabout

'so-called?'

The last person I recall using that word is doing that to undermine the rule of law. It seems you are now doing it. Again to undermine.

Hmm
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HashiAsLarry · 09/02/2017 11:59

The government are following hard right policies using far right tactics. Anyone who speaks with a moderate voice is called a traitor and unpatriotic. Even Douglas Carswell has been labelled as such for heralding Gina Miller efforts for parliamentary sovereignty. The overton window has moved into a different town.

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 12:06

Anyone using the phrase 'so-called' leaves themselves open to the accusation that they don't have real evidence for why the people they are criticising are not what they say they are nor value what they say they do.

Its a dismissive tactic with a lack of substance behind it.

Its a cheap trick of language but nothing more.

That's why Trump did it.

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SapphireStrange · 09/02/2017 12:08

Thanks for that, Red.

GloriaGaynor · 09/02/2017 12:10

Don't you think that perhaps that most of the British population wouldn't put up with any of that rubbish and would stamp it out straight away.

But they are putting up with it, that's precisely the point. People think in stereotypes when it comes to fascism and they think if there are no blackshirts they're safe.

At one time I would have believed that - we didn't fall for the fascism of the 1930s and Moseley's black shirts were seen off.

I don't know, I think people did fall for fascism here, but the war discredited it. There are fascistic elements in France and UK which were never completely defeated, and are again in the ascendant.

howabout · 09/02/2017 12:14

What are your thoughts on Wes Streeting's proposals Red?

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 12:19

Re: Which Lords to contact.

The Lords sit on the "20 Feb / 21st Feb for the first stage of the debate. There is a list of 141 Lords who wish to speak in that debate. calendar.parliament.uk/calendar/Lords/All/2017/2/20/Daily which can be found by clicking on the Show Speakers list under where it says: Legislation
European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill - 2nd reading (day 1) under the Main Chamber diary.

If you click on a name it goes through to their personal profile page. There is a tab which lists each person's biography and member focus.

The Committee stage starts the following Monday (27th) and continues on Wed (1st March)

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SemiPermanent · 09/02/2017 12:22

On the first day of debate, out of five hours of debate, Mark Harper spoke for one of them.

And on Tuesday, Patrick Grady of the SNP spoke for 58 mins.

Hardly an example of the SNP being 'silenced', I'm sure you'll agree.

SapphireStrange · 09/02/2017 12:25

Thanks Red!

CeciledeVolanges · 09/02/2017 12:27

Wes Streeting implies that any amendment or delay of the Bill would have meant "blocking Brexit".

HashiAsLarry · 09/02/2017 12:35

The Lords are getting it from both sides by the government at the moment. On one hand they're being threatened albeit rescinded meekly. On the other the government are showing their contempt for them by refusing to acknowledge the Dubs amendment. Make amendments and we will stand by as you're vilified and probably won't pay any attention to them anyway.

Badders123 · 09/02/2017 12:41

Corcory...
I will say to you what I e mailed my MP

When we ignore the the lessons of history we are condemned to repeat them

However distasteful you may find their views personally, you were on their side in the referendum and voted the way they wanted you to.

Le penn, Putin, farage and trump. They all thought brexit was a grand idea.

That's the fact.

If I were you I would be feeling quite nauseated too.

Badders123 · 09/02/2017 12:43

And yes, as pp say, the British public ARE putting up with it.
Go to any a and e
Go into school
The lack of funds and staff retention crisis has been talked about for years now....
The public DO NOT CARE

But hey, at least we will have bendy bananas, right!?

boredofbrexit · 09/02/2017 12:50

I am sure plenty on the other side will be deluging the Lords with mail.

But good luck with your final stance which serves to show that it was not about 'process' was it? It is evident on this thread that many of you would actually like to overturn a democratic majority vote, supported by the HoC....because you, in your esteemed wisdom do not 'think*' it is, in your view, correct.

*There's that 'feelings' thing again.

HashiAsLarry · 09/02/2017 12:58

I'm sure the Lords are getting lots of correspondence telling them how unpatriotic and traitorous they would be if they even thought of adding some checks to the process.

SapphireStrange · 09/02/2017 13:00

it was not about 'process' was it? It is evident on this thread that many of you would actually like to overturn a democratic majority vote, supported by the HoC....because you, in your esteemed wisdom do not 'think' it is, in your view, correct.*

In my case, I want the House of Lords to consider carefully the options available to us. I want them to pay particular attention to the possible consequences to the UK's economy and society of:

  • leaving the single market and customs union
  • changing the EU principle of free movement (this with particular thought to the devolved administrations, Northern Ireland most of all)

I want the Lords to use THEIR wisdom and their freedom from having to worry about electability to scrutinise all aspects of the Brexit proposal so that we can exit the EU in the best (I mean by that least damaging) way.

So yeah, for me at least, it IS about process.

CeciledeVolanges · 09/02/2017 13:01

The United Kingdom is a parliamentary democracy. Not a majoritarian democracy. That is a constitutional settlement which has held since the late 1700s.

Corcory · 09/02/2017 13:01

Le Penn, Trump, Putin and Farage did not influence me towards a leave vote at all. So they had no influence on me what so ever Badders.

Badders123 · 09/02/2017 13:03

The referendum was ADVISORY
So instead of using it as a starting point for discussions and a powerful leverage angle with the EU for changes we wanted we are now doomed to suffer an unplanned brexit with an unelected leader in charge who seems to think a 52% majority is "the will
Of the people"
😳🙄

Badders123 · 09/02/2017 13:03

I'm not saying they influenced you
I'm saying you share their platform

How does that feel?

CeciledeVolanges · 09/02/2017 13:04

Unless you are Theresa May, Corcory, that is no comfort whatsoever.

Badders123 · 09/02/2017 13:06

I would like the HoL to ensure the rights of current eu nationals living and working here
I would like them to ensure we stay in the single market
I would like them to ensure that TM and right wing tories cannot get rid of the rights we now enjoy thanks to the EU like sick pay, maternity rights, maximum working hours etc...
But yeah, let's overturn democracy! 🙄

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