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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

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GloriaGaynor · 09/02/2017 11:16

According to him anyway. He's on record on that.

Corcory · 09/02/2017 11:16

Where did I infer I had read the whole debate Cecil? I certainly wouldn't be happy that certain members of parliament filibustered or that all the parties represented in the HOC didn't get a fair say in any debate. But Red I don't think I am a moderate leaver. I do debate and am not apathetic and have voted in every election since I got the vote - which is over 40 years ago. I don't think TM is a hard leaver and according to loads on this thread she is the one driving the whole thing!

BlueEyeshadow · 09/02/2017 11:17

It's the incompetence of it all that gets me. I would be gutted by the vote to leave whatever happened, but if I had any confidence at all that the government were actually concerned for the national interest, or had any ability to negotiate a deal, or were prepared to admit that it's immensely complicated and will take waaaaaaay longer than two years, so let's not rush into it on some kind of self-imposed timetable... then I might feel a bit better about last night's vote.

Fawful · 09/02/2017 11:20

Are you feeling happy you're on Sessions' side, bored?

SemiPermanent · 09/02/2017 11:21

Did you know 2/55 SNP MPs got to speak on Tuesday

I watched Patrick Grady on Tuesday evening, and if memory serves me correctly, he gave way for an SNP MP to comment further on every single point he made.

There was definitely more than 2 SNP MPs that were heard over the course of Tuesday, and indeed the last few days.

To assert that the SNP have in some way been silenced is ridiculous.

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 11:21

Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)
I feel the need to say that I will be brief and then just talk for as long as possible, just because I would not like to revert to type. I wish to speak specifically to new clause 100, which is principally in the name of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman). I would like to start by saying how grateful she and I are to the 64 colleagues who have added their names in support of it. That shows the real strength of feeling and concern in the House on this issue. It has already been mentioned by some of my hon. Friends, and I shall go into it in more detail.

4.00 pm
Despite the assurances we have had from Ministers and the Prime Minister herself, very real concerns remain about the potential impact of leaving the European Union on women’s rights and about the Government’s intention of defending them. The new clause addresses that in four key areas. The first is employment rights and protections derived from EU legislation.

We know that the rights of part-time workers and pregnant women at work, as well as—we have seen many different cases about this—the right to equal pay for work of equal value, derived in the EU. The Government’s White Paper argues that we have more generous maternity leave systems here in the UK than are required at EU level, and that is absolutely correct—yes, we do. What I would say to the people in this room about that is, “You are very welcome,” because it was the Labour Government that introduced those things. Specifically, it was my right hon. and learned Friend and other women who sit in this Chamber with me today who fought for those rights.

At the moment, we have something that is better than what exists in the EU, but we have seen in many of the different global changes in the past few days—I was going to say months—how easily women’s rights can be undone when our global alliances begin to fail.

Caroline Lucas
I certainly pay tribute to the role that Labour has played in those rights. Does the hon. Lady agree, though, that the EU does actually take us further in some respects—for example, on equal pay for work of equal value? Would she also agree that the real risk here is that when that EU legislation becomes UK domestic legislation, it can be unpicked through secondary legislation, and what we have heard is absolutely no reassurance on that?

Jess Phillips
Absolutely. I agree entirely, and I will talk a little about what the EU has done that goes beyond UK legislation.

Mr Harper
Will the hon. Lady give way?

Jess Phillips
I will give way—perhaps—shortly.

The rise of pregnancy discrimination in the past few years because of changes in UK legislation means that women’s rights definitely need to be protected and considered, and I would be very happy if we had external protection.

The rights of part-time workers are crucial for women. That includes pension rights and equal treatment at work for part-time workers. Some 75% of part-time workers are women, and 42% of women work part time. Equal pay for work of equal value is crucial for women. The issue derives from the speech therapist case brought to the European Court of Justice in 1993. It is a very live issue, because low-paid women in the UK are today fighting equal value pay cases against Asda and Reading Council—this is still going on today.

The Government’s White Paper touches on this. I am just going to make a minor segueway: because my favourite moment in the White Paper was the bit where it said that Britain does have sovereignty but it has not always felt like it. That reminded me of my children saying, “I know you love him more than me. I know you love me too, but it hasn’t always felt like it.” We really made Britain look like a petulant teen. Anyway, back to women’s rights.

The White Paper says:
“The Government is committed to strengthening rights when it is the right choice for UK workers and will continue to seek out opportunities to enhance protections.”

What exactly does “the right choice” mean? When do the Ministers in front of me think that strengthening workers’ rights is not the right choice?

I remind the Committee that it is not long since we had the red tape challenge. The Equality Act 2010 was included in the red tape challenge in 2012, so the very rights to which the Government now say they are committed they have previously considered to be red tape. The Prime Minister herself was the then Minister who led that review. When Ministers wonder why we doubt the sincerity of their commitment, I say to them that I have read the White Paper very carefully. Much like the Government Front-Benchers going out to the European Union as part of the Brexit team, there is not a single mention of a woman, nor equality, anywhere in the White Paper.

Mr Harper
Will the hon. Lady give way?

Jess Phillips
I think it is time for a woman’s voice to fill this Chamber for now. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman has had his say.

Seema Malhotra
Will my hon. Friend give way?

Jess Phillips
I absolutely will give way. [Laughter.]

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SapphireStrange · 09/02/2017 11:24

I don't think TM is a hard leaver

She wants out of the single market and customs union at any cost. How much harder do you want?

Corcory · 09/02/2017 11:25

Pretty bird, TM stated that DM had said he was 100% behind NATO.

Corcory · 09/02/2017 11:26

Sapphire - she voted remain!

Badders123 · 09/02/2017 11:27

Sorry haven't kept up as had to take my mother to the Drs....
Just heard on radio that Govt now backtracking saying HoL would be abolished
This govt is getting more trumpesque by the day!!😳🙄😡

1981andstillgrowingup · 09/02/2017 11:28

"Getting people on the left to get angry at liberals by creating dislike for an (imaginary) internationalist money-loving cabal (Jews, elites) is what the Alt-right does best. Then they'll make people feel like they will be well looked-after if they all huddle together in their country and close their borders and that's how they will get to power.
(Hope I'm making sense?)" Yes, it's what Hitler did.

"The British people are no more special or noble or above malign influence than any others." Plus the 'British people' have been historically very much shaped by their Empire. They have never been forced to face all the ugly things that the British have done to others throughout modern history. e.g. Concentration camps in SA, Conduct of the British army all over and especially in Ireland, Scotland, across Africa and Asia.

'The English middle and upper classes' (as is the case with most Western Europeans peoples) are rather arrogant. There is an inherent sense of being superior to the rest of the world.

SapphireStrange · 09/02/2017 11:29

Sapphire - she voted remain!

You are deliberately missing the point, Corcory. That was a long time ago and it's what she's doing now that counts. I repeat: How much of a harder Brexit is there than leaving the single market and customs union at any cost?

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 11:29

Seema Malhotra
My hon. Friend is making a characteristically powerful and passionate, and humorous, speech. Would it not be fair to approach the wording in the White Paper with some caution, bearing in mind that prominent leave campaigners argued that leaving the EU would be an opportunity to cut EU social and employment protections?

Jess Phillips
Absolutely. My hon. Friend makes a very good point, unfortunately. The thing that we might get, as the leave campaign said, is a squashing of workers’ rights; the thing that we will not get is £350 million going into the NHS. If only there was a level of consistency in what we have been promised.

Mims Davies (Eastleigh) (Con)
I have always enjoyed working on the Women and Equalities Committee, which has been incredibly harmonious, listening to both men’s and women’s voices. I understand the spirit of new clause 100, but I find it faintly objectionable—I know who I am addressing this to in using that phraseology—to criticise our Prime Minister in talking about women’s rights and equalities, because she has led the way on tackling female genital mutilation, making sure that workers in particular areas have better life chances, and tackling coercive control. May I implore the hon. Lady to believe that Conservative Members, particularly our Prime Minister, do believe in the rights of those both male and female?

Jess Phillips
I have absolutely no doubt that some Conservative Members care about women’s rights, but I have lots of evidence to suggest that some absolutely do not, and need, frankly, a good, strong talking to by our Prime Minister. It is because I know how committed the Prime Minister has been to dealing with issues of violence against women like FGM, and cross-border issues to do with FGM, that I cannot understand why she would whip her party not to vote for this.

When Ministers are at the negotiating table thinking about the competitiveness of the UK economy, what will be high on their list? Will it be how to ensure that we protect and enhance workers’ rights or women’s rights—I think we can see the answer on the Government Front Bench—or will it be to undercut our EU neighbours by becoming a low-regulation, low-tax economy? The esteemed High Court justice Dame Laura Cox has said:

“Some of the basic rights that we now take for granted—pregnancy and maternity rights, part-time workers’ rights, equal pay for work of equal value—are all at risk if the UK becomes a low regulation economy.”

Is that the true destination of these negotiations? Can the Minister give us an assurance that powers in the great—or otherwise—repeal Bill will not be used to remove any equality and employment rights at a later date? Will the rights of part-time workers, pregnant women at work and women fighting for equal pay really be safe with them, whatever happens?

Charlie Elphicke
The hon. Lady is making a passionate case, but it is not really for this Bill; rather, it is for the great repeal Bill, which will come in due course.

Jess Phillips
I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman’s assertion, but I am being asked to vote on something tonight and I want to be certain that people like me and people who live in my constituency are going to be protected. At the moment, I do not feel confident about that.

Mr Harper
May I give the hon. Lady some help?

Jess Phillips
No. To clarify, a lot of Members are waiting to speak. The right hon. Gentleman has been on his feet for many minutes during this debate, and I think it is time for someone else to have a chance to speak.

My second concern, which has been touched on, is the issue of violence against women and girls. The new clause would not only defend women’s rights at work, but protect those women escaping domestic violence and FGM and those trafficked across the EU and the UK. In 2010, up to 900 schoolgirls across the city of Birmingham were at risk of FGM, with the key risk ages being at birth, four to six years old and during puberty. One in five children in Birmingham will have experienced or seen domestic violence before they reach adulthood. At least 300 forced marriages of women take place in the west midlands every year. When Ministers are at the negotiating table, who will be in their minds? Will it be the women in my constituency experiencing FGM and those fleeing their violent partners and using services such as Birmingham and Solihull Women’s Aid?

In Birmingham, four women have been murdered in the past year, with another woman found dead in my constituency only last week. The European protection order ensures that women who have suffered domestic violence are protected from the perpetrators if they travel or move anywhere in the EU. Predictions about the consequences of Brexit for policing measures will depend on the outcome of the negotiations.

On 4 February 2016, history was made in the Hammersmith specialist domestic abuse court when the first European protection order in England and Wales was imposed. In this case the survivor had returned to Sweden. A restraining order and an EPO were granted so that she is protected in the UK as well as in Sweden. It is generally accepted that the UK will want to continue with certain parts of EU policing, justice and co-operation, and it is essential that the UK is able to opt into the EPO agreement following Brexit. The White Paper notably neglects to mention any of this. It does not mention FGM, domestic violence or, indeed, any areas in which the Government will continue to work with European partners on the issue of violence against women.

In the area of crime, only organised crime and terrorism are mentioned. Although they are incredibly serious things, no Member will be able to find as many constituents who are as affected by those two crimes as are affected by what I am talking about. Will ending violence against women and girls and, in particular, the UK’s continued use of the EPO be a priority for the Government during and after the Brexit negotiations?

Finally—this is not a penultimate “finally”—the new clause would achieve what the Prime Minister says she wants to achieve, which is to make the UK a fairer place and to not only protect workers’ rights but build on them. Those were her words.

There are many gaps in our equalities legislation, and there is a need to make our legislative framework fit for the 21st century. Sections 14 and 106 have been there since the Act was passed but have not been commenced. Will the Minister undertake to establish a cross-departmental and cross-party—I put myself on the line by saying that I will come and help—working group to assess and make recommendations on developing legislation on equality and access to justice? My challenge to the Government is this: will they take the opportunity that Brexit gives us and make the UK the best place to be a woman, or will it be one of the worst?

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boredofbrexit · 09/02/2017 11:31

Fawful
Did you not notice I posted it as NEWS along with two other news items?

And to everyone who thinks TM is acting in isolation: really? words fail me.

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 11:33

I

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boredofbrexit · 09/02/2017 11:35

And I agree with Charlie Elphicke on the Jess Phillips speech, totally relevant issues but not relevant to the matter being discussed yesterday.

CeciledeVolanges · 09/02/2017 11:35

1981 I thought it was "democracy" not "patriotism" now

SapphireStrange · 09/02/2017 11:36

Can I ask: how are you all choosing which members of the HoL to write to about the bill? In the past I've written about Brexit to those who come under the 'European Union' section on the site, and tended to pick cross-benchers in the hope that they have a balanced viewpoint. But any suggestions would be most welcome!

Peregrina · 09/02/2017 11:38

I object to the suggestion that we are all off on a fascist direction and that we are returning to the 1930s.

I don't think anyone has said that of you personally Corcory - indeed you have made quite forceful arguments about discriminatory immigration policies. But generally, yes, there is a danger of a drift towards fascism.

Don't you think that perhaps that most of the British population wouldn't put up with any of that rubbish and would stamp it out straight away.

At one time I would have believed that - we didn't fall for the fascism of the 1930s and Moseley's black shirts were seen off.

But now, I don't believe it - there haven't been enough people calling out the racism we have seen since 24th June. As the saying goes 'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.'

I had often wondered why ordinary Germans did nothing - now I know, and I don't want to be counted as one who did the same. It requires two things IMO - speaking out against injustice, racism and xenophobia, and positively trying to do good.

As as for May crawling to Trump: well Farage has already tried that, and has already been cast aside. Who is to say he won't do the same to May?

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 11:39

So Jess Phillips should not have expressed her concerns yesterday then?

It wasn't 'appropriate'?

Oh please. Give over.

We need to be having these conversations NOW and if her speech leads to us here on MN talking about just some of the issues she expressed it ABSOLUETELY was the right and appropriate time to be doing it.

Another six months down the line, is not when we should be starting these type of conversations.

That's what so appalling about the lack of debating time that has been given in the Commons and the fact that so many MPs were unable to participate due to its constraints.

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CeciledeVolanges · 09/02/2017 11:43

I've read the debate (and therefore may have got the date wrong as I was concentrating on the substance not the timing). There was a day when 2/55 SNP MPs got to speak. And that is just an example, there are 650 MPs in parliament. On the first day of debate, out of five hours of debate, Mark Harper spoke for one of them.

BlueEyeshadow · 09/02/2017 11:43

And my MP just said "email me" when I asked him policy questions on Twitter. Yeah, I've been doing that since June. Still waiting for an answer!

CeciledeVolanges · 09/02/2017 11:44

Also Corcory I'm not sure it is the alt-right that is having their opinions "stamped out". There is some pretty effective "stamping out" going on though.

1981andstillgrowingup · 09/02/2017 11:50

"1981 I thought it was "democracy" not "patriotism" now" Yeah democracy with a small 'd' where the opposition is silenced by threats of violence and no discussion, and exchange of different views is permitted or even possible. It's 'The Emperor's New Clothes' type of 'democracy'.