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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

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Badders123 · 09/02/2017 09:09

Corcory... I assure you I do not enjoy feeling the way i do ATM!
Things are happening globally which are very very worrying - by all means stick your head in the sand but I won't
In Russia - legalisation of domestic violence
In the US - where to start!!? The complete disregard form the president and his team for the rule of law. Propaganda viewed as truth, threatening behaviour, refusal to accept judicial law and rights, the rolling back of climate change laws, women's rights and education.
Here - and ADVISORY referendum is being treated as a legally valid mandate - having only a 52% majority is suddenly the "will
Of the people"!?
NHS on its knees, ditto education.
MPs too afraid of populism to vote with their conscience
I've written to both my MP and my local member of the HoL
I would urge everyone to do the same

PattyPenguin · 09/02/2017 09:11

A quote from the Grauniad opinion piece:
"Millions are at the sharp end of globalisation, victims of economic inequality and social injustice, best summed up by the phrase we heard again and again from leave voters when told that leaving the EU would make our country worse off: “Things can’t get worse than this.”"

I have no doubt at all that they are going to find out that, yes, oh yes, things can get a shitload worse.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 09/02/2017 09:12

corcory

Just as well i didnt post that all leavers love trump then isnt it Smile

Luckily for me i only know 3 people that voted leave...and all but one i can avoid talking about politics with Grin

and i am not outraged, don't let the swearing fool you

I thought that most politicians were brown nosing self preservationists before

I think the last politician i felt was a conviction politician was gordon brown. I thought he was wrong still Grin

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 09/02/2017 09:13

Oh yes and the henry viii thing

Thats when i knew the country was going to be fucked over

Kaija · 09/02/2017 09:13

Having spent too much time on the food standards website yesterday and discovering what people think about foreign culture on our high streets, this tweet this morning seems to sum the whole situation up quite adequately:

"So that's it. EU citizenship was my birthright, but now I'm being stripped of it cos some twats are freaked out by Polish food in Tesco."

Not surprised by the tories. As for Labour under Corbyn, my reserves of disgust for their utter uselessness have long since run dry.

Kaija · 09/02/2017 09:14

Thread not website

Badders123 · 09/02/2017 09:14

And I pointed out many times prior to the eu ref that if Putin and trump and le pen are pro brexit then it's prob a REALLY bad idea!!
Also - of course the economy hasn't tanked yet.
We haven't left yet!!

Peregrina · 09/02/2017 09:14

I have no doubt at all that they are going to find out that, yes, oh yes, things can get a shitload worse.

Indeed yes, because although for many heavy industry has gone, they still have an NHS to fall back on. They may have to worry about putting food on the table and keeping a roof over their heads but at present they don't have to worry about finding money for the doctor's bills.

Still welcome to the 1930s inequality - that is apparently what the will of the people is. Don't forget that in the 1930s too, many people were doing very nicely for themselves.

Badders123 · 09/02/2017 09:17

Things can't get worse than this?
Fuck me.

The NHS is being driven into the ground and will be privatised

Ditto education

The far right are on the rise

I would - Respectfully - posit that things are much worse.

Badders123 · 09/02/2017 09:19

Peregrina....
I had a conversation with my son a couple of years ago after the Tory GE win

I told him that it was a disaster and that within a generation we would have a return to 1930s levels of social inequality and a non existent welfare system

I would be very VERY happy to be proved wrong

SadSadAngry

Badders123 · 09/02/2017 09:21

Honestly, how many leave voters have the means to get private health insurance?
Or pay for school for their kids?
Or pay the extortionate rents that will only get worse (BBC saying this morning that rents will rise faster than house prices in the next 2 years....)
I know some leave voters will be ok but most?
I doubt it

Badders123 · 09/02/2017 09:23

And you know what?
We haven't even reached "peak bleak" yet....not by a long way...

HashiAsLarry · 09/02/2017 09:30

As for the destruction of the NHS I call horseshit when leave voters claim they didn't know that would be the outcome whilst simultaneously claiming they didn't believe the bus lies. Their own economists told them. There's a faction who did believe the bus lies. Those that saw those lies for what it was have decided the NHS is something that will just have to go by the wayside to achieve whatever they want. Fuck the poor. Fuck the elderly. Fuck the disabled. Angry

The second group that needs to take a long hard look at themselves are those who joined the Labour Party just to vote Corbyn in without caring a jot about the Party. They're just as guilty in this.

RedAndYellowStripe · 09/02/2017 09:32

corcory
This is how democracy should work in my view

  • ADVISORY referendum says that people would prefer to leave the EU by a very SMALL majority
  • HoC meets up and reviews options, talks about ways of implementing this and incorporates the wish of all people by including the views of all MPs.
  • As those MPs represents a very wide variety of POV and positions, showing the wide variety of point of views on the population, see the 52-48% divide, I expect a wide variety of amendments and a wide variety of what leaving the EU means, not just Brexit = hard Brexit. I would also expect a vote on triggering the article 50 to represent the vote of the population, which means that only 52% of MPS should have voted to trigger that article. Otherwise, surely some MPs are voting against the will of the people who voted for them? How is that acceptable? See for example MPs who constituency have clearly voted remain but voted to trigger article 50.
  • As we are in a parliamentary democracy, I expect that sort of decisions and negociations to be in the hand of the Parliament, not the PM. ESpecially as she was never elected in the grounds of carrying Brexit (she wasn't never elected by the population in the first place anyway. DC was and that was on the grounds on STAYING in the EU. So her mandate is very weak)
  • I would then expect the legal process to be followed to the letter, NOT some MPs or Lords being told that they are either traitors (how can they be if they vote avoiding to what their constituency wants??) or be frightened into voting as they are told (the Lords will be removed from our parliamentary system). That sort of attitude in the RL world would be the one of a bully and the one of someone who knows tre a very weak position but wants THEIR ideas implemented no matter what.

As long as we will have a PM that will carry on threatening MPs and the Lords, I will consider that she is acting as a dictator refusing to listen to the will of the people, as said will is ALWAYS carried by MPs in a parliamentary democracy. Trying to shut them up is trying to shut the voice Of the people up.

PattyPenguin · 09/02/2017 09:36

There are undoubtedly two groups who actually don't care that things are going to get a shitload worse.

First, the Brexiters who truly believe that after a period of difficulty, we will break through to the Sunlit Uplands.

Second, the Lexiters who believe that the inevitable shitstorm will eventually bring about the Revolution and a Socialist Workers Paradise.

A plague on both their houses, say I. They don't give a horn button for all the people who will suffer during the decades they're being proved wrong.

Corcory · 09/02/2017 09:38

What I disagree with is the tone on here that just because the Alt- right and extreme left are for leave then all moderate leave voters are painted with the same brush. I object to the suggestion that we are all off on a fascist direction and that we are returning to the 1930s.
Don't you think that perhaps that most of the British population wouldn't put up with any of that rubbish and would stamp it out straight away. I saw some of the interviews on C4 of the Alt right yesterday and was appalled by them as I think most of us would be. Why on earth do you think leaving the EU is going to make us all turn into Alt-right fascists?

PattyPenguin · 09/02/2017 09:43

I truly look forward to seeing the Leave voters at the NHS march in London on March 4th.

RedAndYellowStripe · 09/02/2017 09:47

corcory So are you saying that moderate Leavers are appalled at the way Brexit is handled?
That they are appalled that the amendment to protect EU citizens living here has been rejected, even though polls from these same MPs said they were in favour of it by 80%? And that apparently the pollution doesn't want to send 3 millions people away.
Are you also saying that these moderate Leavers are horrified at the way the MPs who have voted against riggerwing article 50 are traitors so much so that the vote form the MP doesn't represent the vote of the population?
And that they are horrified and appalled at TM comment about the Lords (vote to trigger the article 50, do not make make amendments or you will disappear)

Kaija · 09/02/2017 09:48

"Don't you think that perhaps that most of the British population wouldn't put up with any of that rubbish and would stamp it out straight away."

Nine months ago I might have cautiously agreed. Now? No way. I have been astonished to see the extent to which Trump has been accepted by so many Leave politicians and by so many posters on here. You clearly do not like the fact that the UK Trumpists are pretty much exclusively Brexiters, but I have yet to come across a pro-Remain Trump supporter.

You may not have thought you were voting for a lurch to the right back in June, but I am afraid that is what you did.

RedAndYellowStripe · 09/02/2017 09:50

And of course the follow on question is

Why aren't Leave voters in the street to show how they will NOT accept the democratic process to be stopped (see my comments about the Lords and the MPs who are/have been told to basically shut up)??

RedAndYellowStripe · 09/02/2017 09:53

Well the reason why there is no money for the NHS is also because the government needs money to do Brexit (pay all the advisors, sort out legislation, pay what money to the EU that it agreed it would pay etc etc).
That's a hell,of a lot of money and something has to go.
It just s happens that it's the NHS that Tories didn't want to keep anyway (but then people DID vote for that back at the time of the GE so at least, that's very much what the will of the people was even if they didn't quite realise it at the time)

Kaija · 09/02/2017 09:55

It cannot be a coincidence that all those who have talked about the benefits of privatising the NHS are Brexiters.

HashiAsLarry · 09/02/2017 09:55

If you go and find a moderate brexiteer on twitter you'll find they're being called traitors too when they voice their opinion that parliament should have a say in the deal.

Corcory · 09/02/2017 09:56

Red - I am appalled by the views of the Alt-right nothing to do with how Brexit is handled or anything else. - where did I say that?
You lot really are good at twisting something people say and making it sound bad. Which is not the case at all.

RedAndYellowStripe · 09/02/2017 10:00

The thing is a lot of what is talked about on this thread isn't really about Slt right.
It's about the way the process is handled. And it so happen thatbthe waybthings are handled are very much the ones used by the far right.

It is not possible to talk about AltbRight and not talk about the way Brexit is handled.

So please can you answer my questions and tell me if you do or not have any issues with I have raised?
Or are too disturbing questions (so they are just twisting things)?
Tbh if these questions were so easy and have nothing to do with the discussion about Brexit and the far right, I'm sure most moderate brexiter would have no issue answering.
It's a shame that they don't.

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