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Brexit

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/02/2017 11:36

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

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Corcory · 09/02/2017 10:06

Kaija - The people who agree with Trump are always going to be right wingers so they would be leave voters wouldn't they but that doesn't mean that many leave voters can't stand him.
Many people in Government will have to deal with him and his administration so the last thing they want to do is upset him - cos you know what his like when he is riled!!! I'm pretty sure many of the people in government can't stand him but have to keep it buttoned.
The same applies to the idea that all Brexiters want the NHS privatised or that we all want to reduce workers rights.

RedAndYellowStripe · 09/02/2017 10:17

So how is it that many other countries who will have to work with him (e.g. Mexico or Canada) have had no issue with taking a hard stance with him?
Why is that the uk is the only country to have gone to see him so soon and the one who wants an official visit?

How on earth are those countries with very close manage? Aren't they scared too of riling him? Why don't they feel the need to 'button up'?

Corcory · 09/02/2017 10:20

Red - I had no idea you were asking me questions!

tiggytape · 09/02/2017 10:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Corcory · 09/02/2017 10:22

None of these countries are leaving the EU and need trade deals with other countries, obviously!

HashiAsLarry · 09/02/2017 10:28

We are so desperate for trade post eu that we will pander to anyone. Glad that's been confirmed.

PattyPenguin · 09/02/2017 10:32

Why do we need to brown-nose Trump? The UK already exports more to the US than we import from there.

If we want to export even more to the US, what are we going to have to do in return?

That's why people are worried about altering the rules to allow the import of foods of lower quality than is currently permitted in the UK. That's why people are worried about allowing US firms to run parts of the health service (and of course exporting the profits to the US).

Trump's modus operandi in business is to stiff his suppliers. He will do exactly that to any desperate trading partner, which is what we will be.

And for the privilege of getting shafted, we will have to hold our noses and put up with his racism, his misogyny and his general all-round ghastliness? No, thanks.

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 10:32

Lets make a point about the Lords that will not be reported by the right wing press.

The Lords CAN NOT block Brexit.

They do not have the power to do so.

They only have the power to go to the Commons and say, you have not thought this through, this element is not sufficient, there is an oversight here, this would allow this catastrophe to happen etc.

It is not undemocratic.

It is ensuring that democratic process is followed with due diligence and to protect society from harm.

The fact that the Lords is being threatened and told to be patriotic by not making amendments and its being said that if it does so it is undemocratic and will be abolished tells you something quite different.

The Lords get a lot of shit for being unelected. But, with the exception of heredity peers who should be axed, like judges there is a reason why these people are generally appointed: for proven service to society and for the benefit of their experience or expertise in certain areas. (Unlike politicians in a great many cases although there are obvious exceptions to this). The system does mean that the Lords are free to do unpopular stuff in the national interest because they are not chasing votes.

I rather suspect that if the Lords do decide to put amendments in, it will have cross party support including possibly from some Conservative rebels.

All this means is the Lords will tell the Commons, "Oi, stop being dicks, put a bit more thought into it and add in this reassurance to prevent this bad thing from happening".

They have to have a reasonable justification behind their logic. They can't just wake up and decide to be difficult to the government one day.

Its because the government are acting in a way that is unacceptable and potentially damaging fashion.

The government, MPs and the media KNOW this. They are counting on the fact large parts of the population don't. In fact they are trying to promote more ignorance. Good governance is about doing the right thing in the national interest, not just the most popular thing. Populism is NEVER good governance for this entire point.

So what does it tell you when they are saying 'if you don't do this, we will abolish you'.

In fact the Lords entire purpose is to react to this type of behaviour with a big couple of fingers in the air if they think it appropriate. Its the type of behaviour they are there to stop.

The Lords might well do nothing yet. The fact the government are threatening them, makes me think that they are perhaps more unlikely than likely to merely let it pass without any comment at all.

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Bolshybookworm · 09/02/2017 10:33

Right, so we're leaving the safety of one of the worlds biggest trading blocs so we can suck up to every tinpot dictator who offers us a vaguely decent trade deal? Sounds great, what could go wrong Hmm

Corcory · 09/02/2017 10:46

Having an hour's meeting with Trump and getting him to 'agree' he was 100% behind NATO. Is not 'brown nosing' or 'pandering ' to him. He may well renege on the 100% behind NATO thing, but more fool him. He certainly can't go around lying to other countries PMs. There would be an almighty international storm if he did. I didn't agree with the invite of a state visit - not keen on that at all. We haven't even started negotiating a trade deal so where does everybody get the idea that we are going to get the worse deal ever. And no Bolshy, we will not be ' sucking up to every tin pot dictator who offers us a vaguely decent deal'! Trump is many things but he is not a tin pot dictator - yet! he was elected by the American people.

Fawful · 09/02/2017 10:54

It is surely impossible to believe that the move towards the abolition of the nation state, the removal of national borders and the destruction of national identity have not been the desired objectives of commercial and political elites for decades past.
It is also, surely, impossible to believe that this objective was aimed at the happiness and welfare of humankind, but rather at the removal of all obstacles to the maximising of profits and the eventual enslavement, through the destruction of national parliaments, of the world's populations.
It's really not impossible to believe.
the idea was (can't believe it needs saying again...) that whatever businesses want would end up benefiting everyone through a trickle down effect.
People of the UK have had a choice for decades between Labour who wanted to put workers' rights first and the Tories who thought it was best for people to help themselves as a result of entrepreneurship etc...

They have repeatedly chosen to go for a Tory vision (aided in their choices by the Sun and their 'you can't trust Labour with the economy', 'too many scroungers' 'live within our means' etc... Remember?)
People would just not vote for Old Labour, that's why 'the liberal left' had to try and see the good in globalisation and present it to the voters to get elected and then try to make it work as fairly as they could.
People chose Cameron over Brown. There was no plan of enslavement from any elite, people got exactly what they were voting for, and they are happy enough in their daily lives to benefit from globalisation (see their Primark clothes etc and the fact that most people aren't natural ethical shoppers, they don't care about anyone's enslavements, if they did our supermarkets would look v different and elections would have different outcomes).

As for the nation state it's a relatively new concept as far as I know, it's not written in stone anywhere that the way of things is that people should stick to their own.
If you replace 'élite' by 'Jewry' your opinion piece looks like it was written by a crazed Nazi. You lifted it off a comment section below an article and it looks exactly like the kind of offensive rewriting of history that the Alt-right produces... Nationalistic, semi-conspiracy theory rubbish, that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Bolshybookworm · 09/02/2017 10:57

Won't we? I think that remains to be seen. We may not have much choice but to suck up to the trumps and erdogans of the world if we want to keep anything resembling an economy. Fun times ahead for all.

1981andstillgrowingup · 09/02/2017 11:01

a government source told BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg on Wednesday: "If the Lords don't want to face an overwhelming public call to be abolished they must get on and protect democracy and pass this bill."

Brexit Secretary David Davis called on peers to "do their patriotic duty".

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38915553

Why, why, why? What has happened to the UK? Why is the government still going on about "patriotism" as the key driving force behind all political efforts?

Of course it is highly ironic to ask the Lords to do their patriotic duty and vote for the bill if really their 'patriotic' duty should be to vote against it as Brexit will ruin this beautiful country. How, how how? How can it be that this country is being whipped up into a nationalistic 'white English' frenzy? And silencing people with different opinions as 'traitors' who deserve to be raped and killed or thrown into jail? I am flabbergasted.

Killing the economy just to get rid of Polish and Italian (etc.) people with accents. People who contribute to our economy and social fabric.

Our politicians (apart form LDs) are behaving absolutely despicably Sad Sad Sad Angry. Rant over.

1981andstillgrowingup · 09/02/2017 11:03

*Of course it is highly ironic to ask

No not to a ask but to order and threaten the HoL

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 11:04

What I disagree with is the tone on here that just because the Alt- right and extreme left are for leave then all moderate leave voters are painted with the same brush. I object to the suggestion that we are all off on a fascist direction and that we are returning to the 1930s.

Don't you think that perhaps that most of the British population wouldn't put up with any of that rubbish and would stamp it out straight away. I saw some of the interviews on C4 of the Alt right yesterday and was appalled by them as I think most of us would be. Why on earth do you think leaving the EU is going to make us all turn into Alt-right fascists?

There is a difference between hard leavers and moderate leavers. I do not think that moderate leavers are fascists.

The problem is that the hard leavers are the ones who are in control of the project. They have the actual power to bring it about.

Already we can see that moderate leavers are less politically active and interested. 5% of people who voted in the EU referendum do not intend to vote at the next GE, compared with 1% of remainers.

Apathy is a real problem here. There is no one on the side with the power holding its own side to account. There is no moderating force to take away from the fascist creep. There is a slow push going on in the overton window and a pushing of 'alternative' facts to make certain behaviours that society might not have stood for in the past, simply let pass without opposition.

Moderate leavers are not shouting and screaming and making any noise at all at the moment. They seem to have pretty much disappeared off the face of the earth in their growingly noticeable silence on individual elements and issues surrounding Brexit. Indeed the 'government knows better than us' has been actively used by more than a few people.

We also have a problem on the other side that there is no one with influence and power doing any holding to account. The Labour Party rolled over.

When I look back at the 1930s, the idea that there was no criticism and no desire to stop the Nazis from within Germany is one that is pure fallacy. Those who were 'hysterical' were silenced over time. One by one. Like the Munich Post. History rarely remembers those voices, but they existed. They warned. And were ignored by fear and apathy and a lack of decent opposition which had sufficient power.

I don't necessarily think we will have another holocaust. I do think we are in danger of having a very illiberal, unfair and discriminatory society in which there will be winners, but inevitably this comes at great cost to civil society and freedom. In which lives will be lost through harm which otherwise would not have happened.

All this business that society won't just let it happen: Its naïve. Its already happening. Through apathy. Through a lack of opposition. People who are trying to hold account, and question things are not able to do so as they lack the authority to do so. And are actively being demonised when they do.

Can I ask you what you even think the purpose of this thread is? Its a warning of the worse case scenario to make the point that we need to be those very people in society that you talk of so flippantly that do not allow this to happen and for this country to become fascist. We are acting as you, yourself suggest to act. Yet you criticise for doing PRECISELY what you say is necessary to stop fascism.

I sincerely hope that the worse fears out there never comes to pass. I do believe that what you describe as 'hysteria' is a necessary part of that process and that in 5 or 10 years time you still get to call us all hysterical.

The thing is, though, that even if that does happen, there may be no way to be sure if our 'hysteria' was the very thing that stopped the worse case scenario, or whether it really was hysteria.

So, I will stick with being hysterical, with it in the back of my mind, that being told not to be hysterical might in fact be the dangerous force and tool that is trying to push through fascism...

And I will leave you to ponder on the sheer irony of your criticism.

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prettybird · 09/02/2017 11:06

Forgive me - I might have missed it - but I've not seen anything where Trump commits to NATO.

I know TM said, "We're 100% committed to NATO" and "I agreed to continue my efforts to persuade my fellow European leaders to deliver on their commitment to spend 2% of GDP on defence, so that the burden is more fairly shared.” to which he nodded.

Personally, I think that is a non-committal commitment from Trump. In fact, for someone who has said out loud he'll give 30 days notice of signed trade agreements and re-negotiate the terms during that period, I'd say a nod was pretty much a non-commitment. Hmm

CeciledeVolanges · 09/02/2017 11:06

Corcory can you honestly say you've read the debate and see that MPs have all had their say? All constituents have been represented? Did you know 2/55 SNP MPs got to speak on Tuesday and the Conservatives were all patting themselves on the back for how generous that was despite Harper filibustering

RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 11:08

Trump is many things but he is not a tin pot dictator - yet!

Not through lack of trying. And its not being stopped by people being polite about it.

He is a man, who by his own admission, if you give him an inch, he'll take a mile.

'Hysterical' is therefore totally justified as a proportionate reason imho.

Its the only damn thing he'll understand. Anything else he would reject as being weak.

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Fawful · 09/02/2017 11:08

Getting people on the left to get angry at liberals by creating dislike for an (imaginary) internationalist money-loving cabal (Jews, elites) is what the Alt-right does best. Then they'll make people feel like they will be well looked-after if they all huddle together in their country and close their borders and that's how they will get to power.
(Hope I'm making sense?)

TheElementsSong · 09/02/2017 11:11

I object to the suggestion that we are all off on a fascist direction and that we are returning to the 1930s.
Don't you think that perhaps that most of the British population wouldn't put up with any of that rubbish and would stamp it out straight away.

Nope, I don't. The British people are no more special or noble or above malign influence than any others. Because we're all human. So if it could happen before, it could happen again. And it could especially happen again if we dismiss all concern as "hysteria" or "it won't happen here" because "we're better than those foreigners" instead of thinking that it could happen so we ought to be careful.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 09/02/2017 11:12

kaiji

I wouldnt mind but in the local shops there are aisles upon aisles of italian food, indian food, mexican food, japanese food

boredofbrexit · 09/02/2017 11:12

News: Sessions confirmed as AG

Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.
Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.
RedToothBrush · 09/02/2017 11:13

The filibustering on display yesterday was dreadful. I have tremendous respect for Jess Phillips who at one point, whilst giving a speech on women's right (which was the best speech I saw all day) that she would not give way to Harper who had been a persistent interrupter who then talked shit for as long as humanly possible even though it was supposed to only be a intervention.

As it goes I think Jess Phillip's speech should be read in full so I will post it here though the original can be found on Hansard here

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GloriaGaynor · 09/02/2017 11:15

Not the NATO bollocks again.

Trump says one thing one day and another the next.

What really counts is what Bannon wants.

Trump also agreed with May no more failed wars, and Bannon is already planning Iran and the South China Sea.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 09/02/2017 11:16

Absolutely hashi

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