The Brexit Arms. A friendly place for anyone wanting to chat about Brexit.

[surferjet]

Pull up a chair and relax.....

I agree with onto.

gender-based violence is a problem and there are cultural issues to consider too. I agree that it is tricky to speak out against male domination or violence against women when there is a race element to it because Black and ethnic minority groups are sadly easily and habitually marginalised and discriminated against. It is equally wrong not to address culture specific sexism but it needs to be done appropriately and with an awareness of the bigger picture. I agree that there is little appetite to address issue such as Rotherham or the Trojan horse school issue and that needs to be addressed, i don't know quite how though. Equally the trans community have become demeaning and compete with women's rights. This is another tricky issue to address witouht resorting to discriminating against the LGBT community.

But people, Trump and Bannon are out on a path of destruction gas lighting their followers. The way the world operated up until now has been flawed, that is so true but shortcomings in the Western world should be addressed in diplomatic and meaningful ways not in fascist male dominated ways. Trump, Putin & co pursue their own interests not those of the little white man or woman on the street or however the saying goes.

But who wants to 'look like the saviour of the world'? I'm just genuinely worried about the world being saved. That's all.

wrong what was the purpose of those links you adddressed to me if all they are more more 'whataboutery'

How do you justify not liking Trumps actions but being happy to massively rely on them for future trade?

' But what people choose to protest about - or not protest about - says a lot about them.
Some people are more scared of being called racist than they are to protest loudly about certain things. I'm not sure I can take those sort of people seriously. To me, they're just playing it safe whilst trying to look like saviours of the world.
It's all bullshit'

My feelings exactly Sur - I have not been able to take recent protesters seriously. Their compassion and outrage is most definitely selective.

Oh on another note, I find it really funny to think of myself as liberal 'elite' just because I am pro REMAIN and find Trump dangerous. I am currently unable to have my (old second-hand) car serviced, my washing machine is out of warranty and has just broken down and I am unable to cover the cost for this for another 2-3 months. I don't feel terribly privileged or part of the 'elite'

Strawman, and please get a proper username.

😂

WT, why straw man can you explain?

I am currently unable to have my (old second-hand) car serviced, my washing machine is out of warranty and has just broken down and I am unable to cover the cost for this for another 2-3 months. I don't feel terribly privileged or part of the 'elite'

Are we playing competitive hardship top-trumps?!

As you very well know, the 'liberal elite' tag goes to the professional hand-wringers, virtue signalling like crazy from their warm, Islington kitchens about the uneducated masses daring to disagree with 'What We've Told Them Is Good For Them' - righteously outraged at being disagreed with by people who should Know Their Place!

wrong what was the purpose of those links you adddressed to me if all they are more more 'whataboutery'

Citing "whataboutery" to me means "don't look at the wider picture and think about how this connects up with other things". It's the complete opposite to how my mind works and I can't see the sense in it as a debating tactic, myself.

How do you justify not liking Trumps actions but being happy to massively rely on them for future trade?

This country (and the EU) trades with lots of countries and regimes I don't like.

User&%%%%*

It's a strawman because no one on this thread thinks that people like you, or all remain voters, are the elite.

wrong, sorry but that is nonsense and I think you know it.

Have a read of the opening post on the new Westminsters thread. That explains far more elequently than I can what the issue his here.

I actually have more respect for posters like surfer who admit they don't give a shit about what Trump is doing than people like you who don't like what is happening but are happy to ignore it because it suits our cause.

Yes, there are plenty of other issues in the world however, Trump is acting in a very volatile and divisive manner right at the very time we need to cling to the shirt tails of the US because we've decided it was a good idea to extracate ourselves from the largest trading block in the world.

We are deliberately ignoring his actions because we are so desperate to maintain our relationship with the US because without it we'd be screwed. The desperation comes from the fact the US do not need us and, if push comes to shove, we'd be out on our ear too.

I don't know if you were asking what I meant by "strawman", if so

Definition of strawman argument

Debaters invoke a straw man when they put forth an argument—usually something extreme or easy to argue against—that they know their opponent doesn't support. You put forth a straw man because you know it will be easy for you to knock down or discredit. It's a way of misrepresenting your opponent's position

Thank you for clarifying WT, I appreciate it.

However what I said in my pp still stands. I am not well off struggling to make ends meet. Yet, I am opposed to Brexit as it will damage our country and those who are struggling now will continue to struggle whilst many who are now just managing will join the ranks of poor Britons. I help out in a local food bank and I really don't want to see more people depending on such facilities whilst said facilities may no longer be able to provide help as fewer people will be able to donate when their weekly shopping goes up, they loose their jobs, tax credits and so on and so forth.

AM I a liberal? I believe people ought to live their lives as they wish whilst adhering to our laws. Human rights ought to be protected. Regarding immigration, I don't see the problem as long as people are enabled and invited to integrate. We are not all the same and the glee with which ALT Right men and women lap up the hateful discourse around Brexit and immigration is sickening. People keep saying that it is the left liberal elite that is against Brexit & Trump. I am none of these. Let's please remember our humanity.

But what people choose to protest about - or not protest about - says a lot about them

Surfer I couldn't agree more. I remember being on MN at various times when atrocities were being committed it was hard to find the same level of outrage as we are seeing now over Trump.

Its this that irks me.

Bear I thought we had been trying to have a reasonable discussion over the last few days, exchange views civilly and treat each other nicely. But since we're obviously not today and fwiw, I couldn't give a flying duck's arse whether you respect me or not.

And I disagree that my post was a strawman ( I am very much aware of the meaning but thanks anyway for the copy it in) I am not a member of the elite and many others who want us to Remain and are horrified at Trump are not members of an elite either. It is a valid argument.

wrong Well thought out and argued response

By saying I don't respect your views I'm not being nasty, just truthful.

This isn't a subject where both sides can be all nicey, nicey.

The EU is Turkey's number one import and export partner while Turkey ranks 7th in the EU's top import and 5th in export markets.
Turkey's main exports markets are the EU, Iraq, Russia, USA, United Arab Emirates and Iran

Yes but these ^^ don't count you see Wrong Trouser, because its the EU dealing with Turkey - that makes it all OK. Morality and outrage are suspended in many many cases with certain posters.

No Bear you weren't talking about respecting my views. You said "I actually have more respect for posters like surfer" which is about respecting the person, not the views.

Anyway, as several times before, I'm going to take a break from reading and replying to your posts for a while because I think once the argument starts to deteriorate to personal insults, there is little point continuing. All the best.

It's different Debbie, it's different. I just don't know why you can't see that

'Morality and outrage are suspended in many many cases with certain posters.'

I like your phases Debbie!

Morality and outrage suspended until further notice

wrong it was not intended as a personal insult. I apologise if you took it that way.

I said many threads ago in a discussion with mangomoon that I do not see comments as personally and I, you, we etc are in the wider sense.

However I'm heartily sick of posters decreeing that people are being hysterical over Trump when the reality is, the term 'hysterical' is being used to over egg the actual sentiment, those who are not concerned at all have something missing from their conscience and those who are concerned but choose to ignore it must be fighting with their own conscience but won't admit it.

Bear - you've burnt your bridges with Wrong now - eh. You're Billy no mates now - will have mooch over to another table.

Grow up inkanta

I think the Queen will be OK hosting Trump - after all she's had to keep calm and carry on with the following in the past:

1978 Ceausescu
1994 Mugabe
2002 Assad
2003 Putin
2007 King Abdullah
2015 Xi Jinping

She's the most professional diplomat in the world....

Do you think the FO guy warning the "Queen is in a difficult position" over this is feeling warm and cosy to Trump?
order-order.com/2017/01/31/peter-ricketts-works-lockheed-martin/