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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

OP posts:
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missmoon · 09/01/2017 15:55

I've been trying to follow the NI developments, but failing to understand the Brexit connection. Would a new NI election return a more or less anti-Brexit assembly?

RedToothBrush · 09/01/2017 16:08

Most of the parties bar the DUP are anti-Brexit. 63% of people in NI voted to Remain.

I would hazard a guess that campaigning would definitely come back to Brexit regardless of the reasons for McGuinness's resignation. At which point turnout becomes important.

So far since the referendum, the LDs have been the big winner in England for being pro-remain. Disillusionment with the Conservatives has suppressed Tory turnout. A situation where the last NI Assembly election was just 8 months ago and the DUP are caught up in a corruption scandal does not bode well.

This article from a couple of days ago, sheds some light on it all for none-NI eyes:
www.broadsheet.ie/2017/01/09/fostering-mistrust/

The whole thing might destabilise the NI assembly itself though (and thus play to May's hand).

OP posts:
lalalonglegs · 09/01/2017 16:09

I can't imagine there will be another nominee, it seems quite clear that this is mostly about getting rid of Arlene Foster who, to my outsider's eye, has been quite egregiously deaf to the voice of her electorate and impervious to the welfare of her country. I hope that whoever replaces her - and I can't imagine she won't be replaced in the current climate - shows a little more humility and a lot more willingness to consider the future of NI and the RoI in this almighty mess. Any fractional leverage that the Supreme Court gives the devolved governments should be seized upon and, failing that, the FM of NI should be falling in behind Nicola Sturgeon and kicking up nine shades of fuss.

Cailleach1 · 09/01/2017 16:18

I would be surprised if it hadn't a, more or less, anti-Brexit assembly now. However, the DUP are the main party in power and support Brexit. Unlike Scotland where the majority Remain voters are reflected in the main party in Holyrood. Arlene Foster couldn't be got rid of even if the assembly simply had a majority vote of no confidence against her. It has to be a majority no confidence on the Nationalist side and also a majority vote of no confidence on the Unionist side. I think most, if not all, non DUP MLA's had a no confidence in her. So a majority had no confidence in her, but not a majority of the Unionists, because of the DUP. Therefore she wouldn't step aside, even for the duration of an investigation into the 'Ash for Cash' Scheme.

Of course it is power sharing with Sinn Féin, so kind of a coalition in Minister jobs.

"While 39 assembly members voted for the no-confidence motion versus 36 against, it was still defeated because in order to pass it needed the backing of a majority of nationalist and unionist members."

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/19/northern-ireland-arlene-foster-survives-no-confidence-vote-green-energy-scandal-sinn-fein

Cailleach1 · 09/01/2017 16:31

Results of last Stormont election.

The DUP has 38 seats, while Sinn Féin has 28, the Ulster Unionists 16, SDLP 12 and the Alliance Party eight.

The Greens and People Before Profit Alliance have two seats each. The TUV leader Jim Allister remains its sole representative.

So, she got one single vote of confidence from outside her own party.

lalalonglegs · 09/01/2017 16:33

Are there any polls of voting intentions in NI taken since this scandal broke?

Cailleach1 · 09/01/2017 16:41

The rejection of the vote on Arlene stepping aside for the investigation, outside the DUP, was Claire Sugden. She is an Independent Unionist. She is the NI Minister for Justice.

SilentBatperson · 09/01/2017 16:45

Arlene is a dipshit. All she had to do was not make a complete and total arse of things and she was sitting pretty.

In terms of Brexit, she was Leave but pretty much in the same way May was Remain. Not a true believer, did it for pragmatic reasons. In Foster's case, she and a lot of the DUP leadership were kind of following the base (so different to May in that respect). And they really didn't have to: they could've done a pragmatic, nose holding, low key Remain approach like May, not complaining about the true believers within the party being Leave, and their base wouldn't have minded too much. They'd have lost a few on the lunatic fringe, but not enough to be significant. And the DUP do also have links with the business community who weren't impressed, unsurprisingly.

Personally I think McGuinness has gone because of the way Foster and the DUP have pissed him around.

SilentBatperson · 09/01/2017 16:48

Would love to know what on earth Clare Sugden was playing at. If I'm being uncharitable, trying to prevent another election which would likely see her lose her ministerial position? She only got it because when you ruled out anyone who was in government already (SF and DUP wouldn't let the other one hold the Justice Minister position), in opposition, had said they didn't want it or was fucking crazy, that literally left only one person.

Or is there some procedural reason why she couldn't vote for?

MitzyLeFrouf · 09/01/2017 16:52

'she was Leave but pretty much in the same way May was Remain. Not a true believer, did it for pragmatic reasons.'

I'm not sure about that. She strikes me as an ardent Leaver.

MitzyLeFrouf · 09/01/2017 16:53

I agree she's a dipshit though! Grin

Cailleach1 · 09/01/2017 16:53

I haven't come across any. However, I don't really know how much any scandal that would move an ordinary DUP voter. Don't forget quite a few of them are creationists, homosexuality against gods law etc, etc. The affiliation is more based on being behind certain tribe trenches. Even if they are bastards, they are our bastards, sort of thing.

I'll never forget Irish Robinson saying in the Commons that homosexuality was more vile than sex abuse. Adultery wasn't a red line for such a committed Christian when she was banging her toyboy. Or irregular payments.

“There can be no viler act, apart from homosexuality and sodomy, than sexually abusing innocent children.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/iris-robinson-gays-are-more-vile-than-child-abusers-28529856.html

SilentBatperson · 09/01/2017 17:00

Foster has talked a good Brexit game since the vote, but nah, I don't think she really meant it. Or rather, didn't really want it. She was expecting, like a number of politicians on both sides of the Irish Sea, for there to be a close Remain victory and to be able to posture and be seen to have communed with her base afterwards. It was a tribal thing.

AnnieKenney · 09/01/2017 17:08

There can be no viler act, apart from homosexuality and sodomy, than sexually abusing innocent children.

THUD

[That's my jaw hitting the floor] Shock Shock Shock

SilentBatperson · 09/01/2017 17:10

'Irish' Robinson, cailleach?!

lalalonglegs · 09/01/2017 17:13

I don't know, Silent, she seems to have walked the walk too. A couple of months ago, the Taoiseach organised a conference on strategies to cope with Brexit in Ireland and Northern Ireland, iirc, and she refused to attend describing it as a load of "grandstanding Remainers". She doesn't strike me as a secret Remainer (unless we buy into a conspiracy that she was being crass and vile in an effort to put people off the Leave movement...).

Cailleach1 · 09/01/2017 17:13

Typo, but a spookily freudian slip which would give her an apoplectic fit.

Shades of John Cooper Clarke there (in my own mind)!

SilentBatperson · 09/01/2017 17:15

And do you want to hear what she did next, AnnieKenney? I'll give you a clue: it involved shagging her dead friend's barely legal son, who she'd known since childhood. Having promised his dad she'd look after him. 18, I think the lad was when they first had sex?

MitzyLeFrouf · 09/01/2017 17:16

I loved when that Iris Robinson story broke. Bigoted bible bashers always turn out to be the biggest sleazes.

SilentBatperson · 09/01/2017 17:18

Foster has definitely done a lot of pro-Leave grandstanding since the vote, notwithstanding the August letter.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/brexit-theresa-may-responds-to-letter-from-arlene-foster-and-martin-mcguinness-35139845.html

Much of it completely unnecessary and shit stirring of course- but again, communing with the base.

I just don't think it necessarily follows from that that she genuinely wants out of the EU. We presumably all agree by this point that lots of politicians in the UK as a whole have been saying things they don't really mean at various points in this whole charade?

AnnieKenney · 09/01/2017 17:22

SilentBatperson That is just...Shock

SilentBatperson · 09/01/2017 17:30

That's NI politics baby! Quite a lot of it is the sort of thing you couldn't make up.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/01/2017 18:11

I read recently that 8% of Unionists would now vote in a Referendum to join the RoI, to stay in the EU and avoid a hard border with the RoI.
Iirc, part of the peace agreement stated that referenda < screams > on reunification would be held at intervals.

I know the RoI can't foot the bill to support NI, bit I've been wondering about a possible way forward there, to avoid the risk of reigniting the Troubles:

Would the EU accept an independent NI remaining in the EU, with the aim of eventual Irish reunification at some unspecified date (pencil in 20 years) ?

Quite a different case to Scotland, because NI could legitimately be regarded as a future part of the RoI and also it would be keeping the existing peace agreement that there cannot be a hard border.
Unlike in the past, the Nationlists shouldn't mind an independent NI - because it and the ROI would both be in the EU, with eventual reunification planned, whereas England would be out

< I hereby allow TM to crib this idea. She needs something >

BigChocFrenzy · 09/01/2017 18:13

iyswim, NI would be rejoining the rest of Ireland, rather than just splitting from the UK, as would be the case for Scotland trying to stay in the EU

woman12345 · 09/01/2017 18:21

SemiPermanent
I'll go with hope, too Smile