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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

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tiggytape · 09/01/2017 07:30

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tiggytape · 09/01/2017 07:37

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RedToothBrush · 09/01/2017 10:38

www.ibtimes.co.uk/uks-former-ambassador-eu-held-secret-talks-cameron-before-christmas-brexit-1599949
UK's former ambassador to EU held secret talks with Cameron before Christmas on Brexit

Sir Ivan Rogers is said to have told the former PM that Theresa May is 'botching Brexit'

The Times quoted a source familiar with what was discussed between the two as saying: "Rogers spoke to Cameron. His biggest fear was that the biggest issue is not hard or soft Brexit, but whether we have an orderly or a disorderly Brexit.

"He thinks we are heading for a car crash, where we don't get a deal and we crash out with nothing. Downing Street's view was that he should stop being such a pessimist.

Rogers thinks we need to plan for a disorderly Brexit on our terms rather than theirs. No 10 has not given it the priority it deserves," the source added.

and

The Times said that there have been claims that May was not keeping key ministers in the loop over Brexit with insiders saying that she had commissioned briefing papers from senior officials which even her own three Brexit ministers have never seen.

May is said to be given private advice by Oliver Robbins, a senior official at the Brexit department. A senior Tory told the newspaper: "Brexit material goes direct to Theresa May and No 10 and [David] Davis doesn't see it. Its quite possible he has no idea."

Why talk to Cameron? He has no power now. (in theory....)
Who ARE these mysterious sources and senior Tories that have spilled the beans?
The Brexiteers being deliberately by-passed fits with them frequently being out of step with No 10 and there being lots of slap downs.
Such centralised power on such a huge issue is doomed to fail - Rogers is totally right.

Again, it does not matter whether you are a leaver or a remainer to share this view.

It all fits in with my original post and why May's style is not good for the country and where her weaknesses are so painfully obvious and dangerous.

www.politico.eu/article/revealed-jeremy-corbyn-labour-plan-to-copy-donald-trump-playbook/
Jeremy Corbyn’s plan to copy Trump’s playbook

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt
So we can now look forward to what? Corbyn encouraging crowds to boo and hiss at journalists at his rallies? What fun.
So typical of Corbyn camp that main lesson they took from Trump was: let's slag off the media a bit more.
Could be worse, I suppose. They could try to reinvent Corbyn as a sex offender. But this is still less than ideal.

www.ibtimes.co.uk/theresa-may-vows-fight-hidden-injustice-mental-health-uk-schools-business-1599945
Theresa May vows to fight 'hidden injustice' of mental ill health in UK schools and business

Words fail me.

How about starting with how you treat those dealing with the Home Office, the DWP, making sure people have adequate housing, making sure that the NHS is properly funded so that doctors have more time with patients, stopping NHS rationing of things like ELCS...

Oh. May's plan for mental health is a bit like her plan for Brexit isn't it? Just think more positively and have happy thoughts and everything will be just fine.

face palm

THIS WOMAN IS AN IDIOT.
And that's rather unfair to idiots.

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lurkinghusband · 09/01/2017 10:57

Sasha Baron Cohen did a thesis on the holocaust, one of his points was:
"The path to Auschwitz was paved with indifference...not everyone in Germany had to be a raging anti semite......they just had to be apathetic."

Hardly new. "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato - over 2,000 years ago.

RedToothBrush · 09/01/2017 11:09

Meanwhile Paul Nuttalls of the UKIPs plan for Brexit involves bringing back pint glasses with a crown on, a priority along with those blue passports.

I'm torn between who I think has the best Brexit Plan; May or Nuttall

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lalalonglegs · 09/01/2017 11:37

Jesus, we're doomed. Has anyone any idea what is happening with Jolyon Maugham's challenge at the Irish court - I feel the need for some good news and I can't see anything about it since he announced that his crowdfunder had been successful. At the time, Maugham said he would be filing papers before Christmas.

SapphireStrange · 09/01/2017 11:40

Marking place. Thanks Red.

Motheroffourdragons · 09/01/2017 11:51

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

RedToothBrush · 09/01/2017 12:13

Roland Smith ‏**@rolandmcs**
Michael Gove, who recently said he was open minded about a transition deal, now sees it as part of a Remain plot
brexitcentral.com/fake-brexit-not-allow-politicians-deliver-change-people-voted-last-year/

Ruth Fletcher @mihe2000
@SimonFRCox @DavidCShipley @solange_lebourg @rolandmcs Yes. There's major distrust within and btw govt and other factions: UKIP, lib leavers

Simon Cox ‏***@SimonFRCox*
Brexiters have fundamentally conflicting irreconcilable expectations of Leave process, aims & outcomes. Where is media coverage of this? 1/
Why don't we hear & see soft vs hard Brexit debates on UK media? It's 2 months to go til May wants to give A50. Where's the coverage? 2/
Brexit negotiations may be most important for UK since Versailles. Yet media still seems scared to ask "what's the plan?" 3/3

Simon Cox ‏***@SimonFRCox
The Brexit Tax. Pro-Leave @Civitas*_UK says British people should pay £9bn extra per year for imports, to subsidize business hit by Brexit.

Gove: Brexit negots easy bc no plans for import tariffs.
^Con thinktank @Civitas_UK : Brexit needs £9 bn import tariffs.
Where's media?^

May is currently doing her speech on Mental Health and her Shared Society. Its farcical.

Faisal Islam ‏*@faisalislam*
PM saying if "mainstream centre ground" Govt such as hers don't address 'burning injustices", far right or far left will, as seen in Europe

Errrrrr................

Ok then in order to tackle the problem of stigma of mental health and funding you'll be taking far reaching steps then if its such a burning injustice and the far left and far right will capitalise if we don't.

Lets talk about something close to my heart. My ELCS I had for mental health reasons. Except that it was recorded as Maternal Request as there isn't a Mental Health category despite the NICE guidelines being quite explicit in their focus when discussing the matter. As you are into reducing stigma, you will be changing this to stop the political handling of similar cases, and challenging the Right Wing Press over their 'Too Posh Too Push Nonsense'?

And you will be making sure that there is adequate funding and that there are no 'blanket bans' on 'maternal requests' then?

And you'll be bringing up standards so that maternal mental health meets the minimum standards advised by NICE which will cost in the region of £337 million a year but will save the UK £8.1 billion per year as a result? That's only a week of the Brexit Bus Money.

And beyond that, and with regard to Children's Mental Health you will be making sure that budgets for mental health are ring fenced?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-funding-children-mental-health-cash-jeremy-hunt-theft-norman-lamb-lib-dem-theresa-may-a7516806.html
Using children's mental health funding to plug NHS gaps is 'like theft', says former health minister

(Norman Lamb = Mental Health Hero regardless of your political colours. We need so many more MPs like him).

Oh... its all total hot air isn't it?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-mental-health-stigma-funding-government-nhs-a7516461.html
Theresa May pledges to tackle 'stigma' of mental health but dismisses call for extra funding

The Prime Minister is expected to pledge new initiatives for schools and employers to provide mental health support

Yep. Total BULLSHIT.

Actions not words.

Over in Northern Ireland, things are already heading south:
www.independent.co.uk/voices/northern-ireland-sinn-fein-arlene-foster-troubles-politics-a7517096.html
A dangerous political crisis is looming in Northern Ireland – yet no one has bothered to notice

This weekend, Arlene Foster'sarch enemies in Sinn Fein have escalated pressure to oust her. Party leader Gerry Adams has signalled that Martin McGuinness, who is Northern Ireland’s Deputy First Minister, could resign in order to pull down the power sharing structures

And

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/just-24-hours-left-your-9589821
Just 24 hours left to have your say on Government plan to gag investigative journalists

A consultation on laws to force newspapers to pay the legal costs of anyone who sues them, even if the paper wins, ends tomorrow at 5pm

Just how far could this be used?

VERY WORRYING.

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SemiPermanent · 09/01/2017 12:14

I don't feel the May-hate that many do tbh - the mental health focus is desperately overdue I think, hopefully the words will be backed up.

RedToothBrush · 09/01/2017 12:39

the mental health focus is desperately overdue I think, hopefully the words will be backed up

Right then. In 12-18 months time, come find me on MN and we'll talk. NOTHING will have improved.

The Conservative Manifesto said this:
www.mentalhealthtoday.co.uk/conservative-party-manifesto-outlines-plan-mental-health.aspx

The Conservative Party has outlined what it would do to improve services for people with mental ill health, if it were elected to govern at the upcoming general election.

The existing commitment to put mental health services on a par with physical health is reaffirmed, with a promise to go further, including ensuring there are therapists in every part of the country providing treatment for those who need it.

In addition, the manifesto says the Conservatives are increasing funding for mental health care. This is not expanded upon, however. But, in the last budget before Parliament was dissolved, there was a commitment to boost the funding of children’s mental health services by £1.25 billion over the next five years to help develop services.

The manifesto also says that a Conservative government would enforce the new access and waiting time standards for people experiencing mental ill health, including children and young people.

As well as this, a Conservative government would ensure that women have access to mental health support during and after pregnancy, while strengthening the health visiting programme for new mothers.

The Conservatives have ALREADY apparently vowed to improve mental health. In the last 18months, its gone BACKWARDS not forwards.

What the fuck have they been doing all that time? Why, if they haven't delivered, aren't heads rolling? Why is Jeremy Hunt still in charge of the NHS? If Osborne went because his economic policy was crap and wasn't delivering, then Hunt should have gone for the exact same reason.

Its total bullshit. As I say, words mean very little. This is a rehash of what is already apparently government policy.

Not only that they need to look at the causes of it, as well as the treatment of it. Cuts left, right and centre in other areas and crack downs on x, y and z do not support the mantra. Talking about expanding the Gig Economy does not fit. Tougher assessments for disability benefit do not fit with it. Not forcing hospitals to comply with NICE guidelines on Maternal Mental Health does not fit with it. Scaring foreign doctors back to where they come from does not fit with it. Offering nothing to social care does not fit with it.

Of all the things that you can come out with, this subject is probably one that angers me more than Brexit (and lets face it, I'm pretty riled on that).

Please if you want to go down the route of being 'hopeful' on this, can you explain to me why I should be hopeful in anyway? What has changed? What's on offer that makes a difference to policy so far this electoral term? Why does what May says now suddenly make a difference?

She's been PM for nearly 6 months of that 18months remember. She's so snowed under with Brexit how can she personally make the difference on this? She HAS to delegate it somehow. Obviously to the Health Minister. Oh. Wait. Shit. The same health minister who has done bugger all to deliver on that manifesto pledge.

COME ON. WAKE UP.

All this is, is a smoke and mirrors distraction technique away from the current focus on the NHS humanitarian crisis. Why make a big speech about mental health now? If people are talking about this, and are 'hopeful' then they stop asking awkward questions about other things.

THINK ABOUT IT.

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TheMartiansAreInvadingUs · 09/01/2017 12:39

Re investigative journalists
It just confirms once more what I've always thought. TM is just a small dictator that is slowly but very surely settling down. Freedom of the press is part of democracy. If the press isn't free anymore, because anything slightly controversial could lead to them paying huge bills, then we are loosing our democracy.

As for 'people want a control on immigration'
I want to ask
Is it what people deeply want
Or is that people have been to,d they want
Or is that people have been brainwashed in these last 15years that immigration was the root of all evil. It started with asylum seekers, moved to non eu I migrants and now it's everyone.

What will happen when these awful immigrants that are taking all the jobs are leaving?
Where I leave, a full on Leave area, immigrants are leaving. EU immigrants but also some 'illegal' non eu immigrants. That means huge issue in the care sector (not enough staff which means elderly people left at home with little care) or on the NHS (who has been relying a lot on said immigrants).
We haven't left the eu yet, nor as any of TM rules being implemented. How will the country cope wo them??

prettybird · 09/01/2017 12:47

After having had the Christmas period off, it's taken me three days to catch up on the Westministenders threads Shock

There were lots of bits and pieces that I could have commented on in the previous threads, but I'm sure similar topics will come round again Wink

In the meantime, TM's comments at the weekend, "We're leaving. We're coming out. We're not going to be a member of the EU any longer." reminded me of the Monty Python Dead Parrot sketch Grin

SemiPermanent · 09/01/2017 13:07

I'm hopeful because by laying it out as she has it has put mental health firmly in the spotlight.
I don't need to 'wake up', I have a long history of mental health problems myself & friends over the years have struggled too.
I don't care who it is that has put these proposals forward tbh, I am just pleased that someone finally has - I am allowed to be hopeful.

RedToothBrush · 09/01/2017 14:05

In other words, you have no substance to your belief then SemiPermanent.

Additional training for teachers, an extra £15m for community care, and a £67.7m investment into online services such as self-checks were among measures announced by the prime minister.

£67.7million into online services rather than seeing a person? Yeah ok. Of course you have to have online access for that. My local library only offers 1hr of free internet. If you have no job, your benefits cut off because the DWP think you are not unwell enough or you live rurally that kind of misses the point.

Apparently mental health as a whole costs £70billion a year to the country as a whole. 4.5% of GDP each year caused by productivity losses, higher benefit payments and the increased cost to the NHS. 40% of 370,000 new disability benefit cases in 2014 related to mental health. Around 1million people on JSA or ESA were having their ability to find work hampered by mental health issues.
Source: www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/10/mental-health-issues-uk-cost-70bn-oecd

An extra £15million for community care?

Mental health funding has fallen in real terms (Feb 2016) and the total budget for mental health was £11.7bn in 2015. That's about double what the NHS pay for obesity related conditions. £67million for online services, represents 0.6% of the 2015 budget for mental health. £15million for community care represents 0.14%. Surely those kind of 'increases' are at best only restoring levels of funding to previous levels of funding rather than actually increasing it.

Then there is no point in training teachers to deal with mental health issues. Firstly they are teachers not medical staff and secondly if they do identify more children with a legitimate issue they need the resources there to be able to help get them referred. What's the point in identifying more people with mental health problems if there isn't something really backing it up practically? Read MN and the problems people already have getting their kids to get access to CAHMS. Read above link from Norman Lamb and how money is being diverted from these services to prop up the NHS in other areas.

(To put into context Cancer is supposed to cost the country £15billion per year - 2012 and the cost of obesity to the country was estimated at £27billion - 2015. The suggestion here is that Mental health costs MORE to the country than both put together. Why isn't Theresa May stressing this, if she is so determined to bring about change?)

I could go on. And on. And on. And on about the subject, but I won't. Its deserving of its own thread, but my point still stands:

Are you actually having a laugh when you are 'hopeful'?

Look at the reality rather than listening to a speech and put it into some sort of meaningful context.

Action v Words. Substance on the ground v Some good PR.

As I say, politics in this country seem to just be about 'believing' rather than anything else at the moment. Its a bad as saying 'cheer up' to someone with depression and thinking this is actually going to make all the difference.

Come back and talk to me about the progress in 12 - 18months time. I will very happily eat my words if I'm incorrect.

As I say, its just a cover for other stuff going on in the NHS. Lets get some 'good news' out there so people stop talking about the other stuff.

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RedToothBrush · 09/01/2017 14:09

Oh and Norman Lamb has been banging on about it for YEARS.

No one cares. No one will care anymore now May has said it.

Nothing will change unless this changes.

Rethink said mental health accounted for 23% of the disease burden in England but received only 13% of the health budget. From 2014.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-26957435

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Cailleach1 · 09/01/2017 15:06

Just wondering what people make of May's endowment of her pronouncements waffle to Sky yesterday.

At around 8.19-8.24 minutes in she says "The best possible deal for trading with and operating within the Single European Market."

So just puzzled about the operating within the Single European Market bit. Considering she said they weren't going to pick bits and have to uphold the 4 freedoms to do this. Did she just contradict all the other waffle speak she was repeating ad infinitum?

Cailleach1 · 09/01/2017 15:07
RedToothBrush · 09/01/2017 15:16

Laura Kuenssberg ‏**@bbclaurak**
Reuters reporting Merkel says if UK doesn't accept 4 freedoms of EU (inc immigration), access to single market cd be limited

Not surprising but not helpful for UK

Sam Coates Times ‏*@SamCoatesTimes*
There's an impression May wants the EU to be the ones to spell out to Brits they cant stay in single market member given immigration demands

In that sense it might - counterintuitively - be helpful to her plan... Puts blame for putting up barriers on France, Germany etc

Laura Kuenssberg ‏**@bbclaurak**
Certainly would explain reluctance to admit single market membership impossible under current rules

That of course would be my definition of Mayism to the letter...

Except as David Allen Green points out. Its not new. And he's wrong it was also said pre-referendum that we could not have cake and eat it by Remain camp

Law and policy ‏*@Law*andpolicy
Reuters reporting Merkel stating the obvious.

Single market = four freedoms

"Single Market means all four freedoms"

EU said this is in:
June
July
August
September
October
November
December
now January

still *shock"

Three freedoms ≠ single market

He then expands:

www.ft.com/content/06f4a4c8-96d1-3f8a-aa90-20bdc0e51f46
Why will Theresa May not admit the UK will leave the single market?
by David Allen Green

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RedToothBrush · 09/01/2017 15:26

Nick Reeves - 48% ‏*@nickreeves9876*
#Brexit mentality - If the UK is doing well it's in spite of the EU, if it's doing badly it's because of the EU.
#Remain

BIG Brexit development - this time in NI.

Laura Kuenssberg ‏*@bbclaurak*
Martin McGuiness to resign

Sinn Fein has 7 days to nominate someone else to replace McGuinness, or Secretary of State MUST call N Irish election

Hearing McGuinness trying to force resignation of First Minister, Arlene Foster, caught up in a row over an energy scheme

McGuinness and Foster held a joint office, so his resignation means technically, she is no longer First Minister

McGuinness says in his resignation letter:

“It is with deep regret and reluctance that I am tendering my resignation as deputy first minister with effect from 5pm on Monday, 9th January 2017.

"The DUP's handling of this issues has been completely out of step with the public mood which is rightly outraged at the squandering of public money and the allegations of misconduct and corruption.

"The public are demanding robust action and accountability but the DUP, in particular Arlene Foster , have refused to accept this.

"The minister responsible for the RHI scheme should have not Executive role in overseeing how this will be rectified."

I'm noting the word 'accountability' in there. He also says the current buzz word, 'corruption'. I also wonder just how much its about this particular issue and how much its about other issues and its opportunism for a wider political point.

A NI election? How much would that worry the DUP?

Two words are springing to mind here: Mandate and Brexit.

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Cailleach1 · 09/01/2017 15:41

Political party support in NI isn't really based on normal political affiliations, though. It is tribe based. Any rejection of DUP may go to UUP or the other Unionist/Loyalist parties. Of course UUP didn't come out for Brexit, more in line with the majority of voters in NI.

First post Brexit major election if no other nominee. Not to mention what the Supreme Court makes of the claim that the GFA etc gives even more devolved powers to NI in their determination than Scotland. Only Scotland is really reported on in the British News wrt their status/sovereignty and voice in devolution terms.

It would be a bit ironic if the court agrees that NI (who the British press, politicians and debate has ignored, at best) have more say over their status because of the GFA. One strand was an international treaty lodged with the UN, I think.

Mind you the DUP didn't support the GFA either.

HashiAsLarry · 09/01/2017 15:42

I'm torn between who I think has the best Brexit Plan; May or Nuttall

Definitely Nuttalls. Solely on the basis of he has a plan and to hell with the consequences

RedToothBrush · 09/01/2017 15:43

Oh and this is a gem of a thought:

(((Tim O'Connor))) ‏*@timoconnorbl*
You know, what this situation in NI needs now is the UK Supreme Court agreeing with the argument about the consent being needed for Art. 50.

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RedToothBrush · 09/01/2017 15:46

Any rejection of DUP may go to UUP or the other Unionist/Loyalist parties. Of course UUP didn't come out for Brexit, more in line with the majority of voters in NI.

That was my thought. That alone might yet prove problematic.

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