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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

OP posts:
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DarthPlagueis · 07/01/2017 22:27

Red's threads (ooh a rhyme) are always so balanced and her posts well thought out. Incredible tenacity as well!

Motheroffourdragons · 07/01/2017 22:33

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 22:57

Where are we? Up shit creek with a pm asking for unity whilst similataneously doing as much as she can to drive the wedge in by being as inflexible and difficult in her treatment of EU nationals living here as possible.

Does she not get that whilst a lot of people are anti immigration to others they are our friends, our colleagues, an essential part of our society that you can not just rip out without it destroying the fabric of our current society?

We can not just turn our backs on those ties and WHO not just what we think important. These are not faceless numbers but people we know. Anti immigration is one thing. Anti people already here is another.

You just have to see that footage of her with the other EU leaders where she wanders around bewildered and alone whilst everyone else in on friendly terms to see just how up shit creek we are.

If May gave a shit about unity that's where she could start. Then we could talk about issues relating to vulnerable and disadvantaged groups instead of this crap about expanding the gig economy for example.

Nope instead she talks about removing rights which protect the individual from the state. Whilst similataneously saying she's not going to take away rights. How does that even compute?!

I just don't see how she gives many people any option but to be difficult because she's handling things so poorly. She expands things beyond leaving the European Union and makes the agenda even wider and less about social cohesion by making it more not less difficult to intergrete in Britain.

Little England does not just want it to be about the future. It wants to change the past and what has already happened. This is fundamentally the problem. Trying to turn back the clock rather than talk about and focus on the future will not bring unity.

OP posts:
iwanttoridemybicycle · 08/01/2017 13:18

That footage of May at the EU was very telling. Bet she has no friends in real life either.

DarthPlagueis · 08/01/2017 13:19

I think that footage was over blown tbg, she was on her own 17 seconds.

RubyPumps · 08/01/2017 13:23

Thanks Red

FannyCradock · 08/01/2017 13:30

Marking my place, thanks Red.

joangray38 · 08/01/2017 13:33

She is kidding herself if she thinks other EU member states/ EU Are going to give her an easy time or what she wants during negotiations. That clip shows that she has alienated them all with her sound bites and outright lies- even the Maltese pm said they were all fed up with them. Then there is Bojo to add in to the mix.

DarthPlagueis · 08/01/2017 13:39

Thinking of the terms she is using its hard brexit, no customs union etc. Access to the single market doesn't mean being able to trade on single market terms, it just means being able to trade with it. So WTO rules it is then.

She's spelling it out quite clearly.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2017 13:49

Thanks for your great OP, red as always Flowers

Your threads are the "Hitch-Hikers Guide through Brexit" Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2017 13:52

I visualise the UK negotiators wandering up and down the corridors of the EU Council building, randomly opening doors and saying, "Brexit means Brexit, mein chaps, Damen und Herren"

SwedishEdith · 08/01/2017 14:21

Didn't watch but have seen the quotes on Twitter - "We want the best possible deal for UK in the European Union". Did she say in the EU?? What the UK has is the best possible deal.

Brewdolf · 08/01/2017 14:40

Thanks again red

twofingerstoGideon · 08/01/2017 14:48

Thanks, Red. Reading avidly, if not contributing much at the moment!

woman12345 · 08/01/2017 14:52

cheers red!

TheMartiansAreInvadingUs · 08/01/2017 15:00

Thanks for the thread Red
I have to say I have quit reading for a bit as I am finding it all too depressing. And scary.

Re TM I think what she wants is a hard line Brexit so she actually doesn't really need to be nice to the EU.
She doesn't need to take care of the EU nationals in the country (and after all who cares about the Brits in Europe?)
I'm not even sure she cares about still having some beneficial stade deals with the EU
I don't envy any of the high ranking civil servants who have to deal with her atm TBH.

SilentBatperson · 08/01/2017 15:02

I'm not sure she actually knows what she wants. She is a disgusting human being, but it's not like any of the other candidates weren't.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2017 15:16

Once upon a time, the Red Cross being called in to help out with the “humanitarian crisis” in English hospitals would mean disaster for the ruling party both in the polls and in the next GE.

Examples include at least 3 cases reported of people dying on trolleys in corridors, after waiting there up to 35 hrs because wards are full.

atm, US and UK English politics have the dial so firmly stuck at hard right that it makes no difference.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2017 15:23

I've been wondering why there has been such a drop in empathy for the vulnerable or just unlucky, in fact often an increase in blame, even glee at misfortune.

"Snakes in Suits" (2006 book by Robert Hare & Paul Babiak) analysed scientifically how psychopaths thrive in business, "when psychopaths go to work"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakesinn_Suits

imo, many have moved to leading positions in politics now, so we now have several
"Snakes in Flags"

Ok, that explains the leaders and their planned "bonfire of workers' rights" the uk needs for WTO and tax haven status.

However, most of those making the nastiest comments about "scroungers" on MN and the Fail don't seem to be in the small % of high income people who will be net contributors over their lifetime.
Similarly those who are gleeful about EU immigrants who didn't realise 30 years ago that they should pay out for British citizenship to avoid uprooting their families, losing their pensions.

So are they just the unsuccessful psychopaths, who didn't do well, but at least can rejoice that others will now suffer too ?

woman12345 · 08/01/2017 16:39

I agree that there is a huge "drop in empathy for the vulnerable". Suicide rates are rising, especially among the ill and vulnerable. Prison deaths are at an all time high.
Simone de Beauvoir in her introduction The Critique of Dialectical Reason, said ."people do not revolt against their dehumanisation in bourgeois capitalist society because they are serialised." (divide and rule)
from Controversy by Simon Moyn
Sasha Baron Cohen did a thesis on the holocaust, one of his points was:
"The path to Auschwitz was paved with indifference...not everyone in Germany had to be a raging anti semite......they just had to be apathetic."

SwedishEdith · 08/01/2017 16:52

I think it, maybe, comes from fear as well. The non-rich who cheerlead for the non-caring elite (sorry), may just feel better by thinking they're on the "winning side" - as though that will protect them. Scapegoating is often about making the scapegoater feel better - man's need for hierarchy?

And the apathy thing is fear as well - look at the inability to discuss this anywhere except the EU threads so people can hide them. Some people (understandably) don't want to face reality because it's actually very frightening at the moment.

Mistigri · 08/01/2017 17:42

I don't believe that fundamental, underlying levels of empathy can change in such a short time; what's changed is social attitudes towards expressing that lack of empathy.

I also don't believe that total lack of empathy is particularly widespread: it's just noisy. If you were to survey anti-claimant or anti-migrant attitudes on MN, for example, you'd find that the most strident views were held by a relatively small number of rather prolific posters, often ones who won't take no for an answer (the EU ref threads, pre-referendum, were a good example of this as were the Cologne sex assault threads).

Finally, I think that increased public lack of empathy goes alongside a decreasing respect for education and culture. The psychology literature shows a small but significant correlation between anti social behaviour and IQ. If you give a louder voice to uneducated people with strident opinions, it may be that the natural result is a rise in public displays of non-empathetic behaviour.

SwedishEdith · 08/01/2017 17:52

Beppe Grillo's Five Star Party wanting to disassociate from Farage. If only they'd done this early - isolated UKIP more.

woman12345 · 08/01/2017 18:05

Poor Nigel the Alan Partridge of the suburban fascist. Also wondering how the up coming NI election will play for May's chums the DUP.

DarthPlagueis · 08/01/2017 18:11

James O'Brien interview in the Guardian sums it up quite well:

"Brexit was supposed to be about accountability – but so far the Leave side are going after the judiciary, the rule of law, the impartiality of the civil service, the sovereignty of parliament"