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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and the Country find out what ‘Mayism’ looks like.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2017 11:04

Its fair comment to say that Theresa May doesn’t like people who disagree with her.

In her New Year’s message, the Prime called for unity. She insisted that she would represent the interests of the 48%. I’m sure I’m not alone in finding these comments rather at odds with her actions.

The New Year hasn’t started to well for her with the resignation of the UK’s ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers in which he accused the government of ‘muddled thinking’ and urged civil servants to stay strong in delivering bad news to ministers.

Rogers had, made a point of stressing that the UK needed a transitional deal which would be around 10 years which went down like a cup of cold sick. His resignation has been greeted by howls of joy by rampant Brexiteers. Yet given that when the UK entered the much less complex European Community in 1973, we had a seven year transition period in, the suggestion of a 10 year exit, actually makes sense if you want to Leave the EU and its far from an obstructive position. Rogers has subsequently commented that he thinks we have a 50:50 chance of a chaotic exit now, given ministers refusal to listen to reason.

In all honesty that looks like an optimistic assessment at this moment in time.

It all begs the question of what next?

To look at the future, it’s worth rewinding a little and seeing how we got here. Just how did May become PM over and above her political rivals when she has very few political allies and friends.

Back in October 2015, as still Home Secretary, Theresa May made her speech at the Conservative Party Conference and said that immigration makes it "impossible to build a cohesive society."

This Telegraph Article from the time made the observation that the speech was designed to fan the flames of prejudice in a cynical attempt to become Conservative leader

How is this ever going to be reconcilable with Remainers? That is not just an anti-immigration stance. It goes way beyond that. May was apparently a reluctant Remainer, but there has always been this accusation that she was never fully on board and never actively campaigned. I just don't buy it anymore.

Then there was how she worked with the Coalition Government.

In September the Liberal Democrats made the accusation that she repeatedly trying to interfere with a crucial Government report on the effects of immigration back in 2014. This was not the first such accusation. It suggests she was anti-expert and post-fact just as much as any hard core Brexiteer. Norman Baker also accused her, before he later resigned, of suppressing information about to deal with people on drugs. His resignation letter, is incredibly reminiscent of Ivan Rogers resignation letter:

In a scathing verdict on Ms May’s leadership, Mr Baker warned that support for “rational evidence-based policy” was in short supply at the top of her department.

And

He told The Independent yesterday that the experience of working at the Home Office had been like “walking through mud” as he found his plans thwarted by the Home Secretary and her advisers.

“They have looked upon it as a Conservative department in a Conservative government, whereas in my view it’s a Coalition department in a Coalition government,” he said.

“That mindset has framed things, which means I have had to work very much harder to get things done even where they are what the Home Secretary agrees with and where it has been helpful for the Government and the department.

“There comes a point when you don’t want to carry on walking through mud and you want to release yourself from that.”

Was Theresa May to blame? Did Norman Baker have a point? Well Ivan Rogers seems to think he does.

The Economist’s Indecisive Premier article does say that May worked well with people she got on well with or had a shared vision with – including Lynne Featherstone, the first Liberal Democrat to work with her at the Home Office. The trouble is, that there is an ongoing pattern of her having problems with those she doesn’t get on with and her desire for control and micro management lead to a tendency to build an echo chamber rather than build a consensus or more pragmatic approach. It also notes she had personal clashes with Gove, Osborne and Johnson on key issues. Its not just Liberal Democrats she has a problem with. Of course, she only has one of the three in her current Cabinet. Let’s not forget Mark Carney either. It rather leads you to suspect that Baker was not the first, nor will Rogers be the last.

This does not bode well for compromise with the EU. May does not seem to do compromise unless backed into a corner and then its because she has been forced and then not on her terms. May can not bulldoze in the same when she does eventually sit down for talks.

It does not bode well for the future of this country, if senior positions are only for Yes Men regardless of whether you are a Remainer or a Leaver. If she has these ongoing issues with Gove, Osborne and Johnson, is it a problem? Will they continue or will they quit? Will Davis or Fox get frustrated at her constant slap downs. Will the lack of friends be a problem in the long run. Especially when one of her closest allies in Phillip Hammond is also seeming to be facing the same frustrations.

Of course, no friends, also means May has plenty of people she has no problem with throwing under the Brexit Bus.

Will May take any responsibility if it all goes wrong? Who did Theresa May blame for not achieving the all-important immigration target in 2014?

Theresa May: Lib Dems to blame for immigration target failure

It was not her failing. Of course.

And the legal battles she lost whilst at the home office? Not her fault. It was the left wing liberal human rights lawyers, therefore Human Rights are the problem and must be removed.

Never hold up the mirror and admit your beliefs are wrong. Fudge the figures, supress the reports, fuel the flames, blame others, send people to Coventry or ignore them until they quit in frustration. Anything but take responsibility or listen to what you don’t want to hear. She is well versed in it all. These are not the hallmarks of a great consensus builder.

When May calls for unity, is it genuine or merely a precursor for the inevitable blame stitch up? Excuse my cynicism but this is the very definition of what Mayism is. Oh and don’t forget the Red, White and Blue bit. Patriotism the last resort of the scoundrel.

May is set to make a speech later this month outlining her commitment to Brexit. It sounds like yet another guaranteed source of conflict and division rather than unity. Davis and Johnson are helping write it. Fox has been sidelined... which fits with the rumours that he's first under the wheels.

May WILL unite Leavers and Remainers in the end. In how we look back at how she drove us off the cliff and how she sold us all down river with her hard headed blinkers.

Unfortunately the chances are, this will be after it is too late at this rate, unless people on both sides wise up and realise what is really at stake.

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Thread gallery
5
lalalonglegs · 08/01/2017 18:31

James O'Brien is spot on (I am still struggling with this parallel universe in which LBC is the voice of liberal hope.)

Are there any upcoming NI elections? I thought they had theirs last year.

Justchanged · 08/01/2017 18:32

A slight aside, but I'm listening to 'Where Do You Go To, My Lovely' following the death of Peter Sarstedt, and remembering a time when being cosmopolitan and European was seen as glamorous and aspirational. Although I'm much younger, the words Boulevard St Michel and the Sorbonne were so evocative.

I guess not on May's Desert Island Discs selection.

woman12345 · 08/01/2017 20:59

Justchanged I've been thinking of all the texts, art and music which in this new political landscape seem to be ancient artefacts. The Lord of the Flies, Of Mice and Men and Anne Frank all have themes which are of a different eras already. I liked that Rebecca Ferguson wanted to sing 'Strange Fruit' when asked to perform at that person's inaugoration It's a time for the artists to keep creating.

Much of what is remembered of the people's struggles against fascism in the 1930s and 1940s is artistic:Picasso's Guernica, Marlene Dietrich's Lilli Marlene, Charlie Chaplin's The Dictator. The Spitting Image creators have said they think they could have helped avert brexit if they'd still been on TV.

MangoMoon · 08/01/2017 21:04

I think there's a gaping hole which is gagging for the return of spitting image tbh.

There used to be loads of political comedians & piss taking years ago, now they're not being taken the piss out of enough - they've started believing in their own hype far too much.

RedToothBrush · 08/01/2017 21:32

Something to ponder:

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Excellent questioning of May by @SophyRidgeSky about UK relationship with Single Market:
news.sky.com/video/brexit-trump-and-the-nhs-prime-minister-sets-out-her-plans-for-2017-10722101
The questioning about single market relationship not have been better. @SophyRidgeSky did better than December's parliamentary committee.
There must be some reason why May will not explicitly admit "UK will not be part of the single market". Curious.

May: "Look, it must quack like one and look like one."

- Like a duck?

"We are clear that we want something that looks as if it quacks."

DH's response to the question - "because she does not want to leave the single market. she does not want to be the prime minister who single handledly destroys the economy."

I'm struggling for an answer about why May refuses to spell it out that we are definitely leaving the single market.

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RedToothBrush · 08/01/2017 21:34

James Chalmers@ProfChalmers
An interesting point. People have recently been saying "the implication of May's statements is clear, really". But why all implication?

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Exactly. The refusal to say it explicitly is odd.

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iwanttoridemybicycle · 08/01/2017 21:37

I would love Spitting Image to return, lots of idiotic politicians, the makers would be spoilt for choice!

woman12345 · 08/01/2017 21:38

I like it when she gets a question she doesn't like (all of 'em!) and does that pursed passive aggressive smirky thing.
Did you see this one with Andrew Neil:

1 nil to Paisley's finest.
iwanttoridemybicycle · 08/01/2017 21:38

Maybe May is playing for time until the Supreme Court judgement?

RedToothBrush · 08/01/2017 21:43

David Green @itsdavegreen
And now, a long Twitter thread about a popular and engaging topic: regulation, the Single Market, and Brexit.
If the UK's staying in the single market, it's accepting not only every regulation made by the EU, but also the ECJ's binding jurisdiction.
If the UK comes out of the single market it regains regulatory and judicial "control", but at a cost.
The reason UK goods trade seamlessly across borders is because of the regulatory unity of the single market.
Without it - you're looking at customs checks, goods being held in warehouses at Calais to be inspected before they can proceed.
People talk about industries voluntarily adopting EU standards to continue with market access post-Brexit, but it's nowhere near that simple
Suppose a Widget company decides, voluntarily, to adopt EU standards in making its Widgets. How do EU buyers have know they actually do it?
Single market competitors have the obvious advantage that the regulations are legally enforceable by their domestic courts.
So outside the single market, even compliant UK firms are at a serious disadvantage.
Now let's suppose there's an industry-wide solution: the UK Widget Maker's Association imposes the EU regulations on all of its members.
This is superficially attractive: the regulations become a contract enforceable against a Widget manufacturer, mimicking single market rules
But it means that the UK Widget Maker's Association has to update the rules it imposes on its members with every new ECJ judgment.
Not only that - but the English courts will be called on to interpret the regulations without being able to refer questions to the ECJ.
So what happens when the English courts decide a point of construction of the regulations one way, and the ECJ does the opposite later?
Even with voluntary adoption AND industry-wide imposition: the regulations in the UK and in the Single Market inevitably drift apart.
So, my conclusion: Any Brexit which takes the ECJ out of our judicial system will inevitably be a hard Brexit with huge non-tariff barriers.

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Mistigri · 08/01/2017 21:56

I'm struggling for an answer about why May refuses to spell it out that we are definitely leaving the single market.

Because May although inflexible and autocratic is not stupid: she knows that (a) leaving the single market will be extremely damaging to the economy (I work for one of DAG's widget makers. NTBs would be massive headache. Happily we have factories in Belgium and Eastern Europe that could be expanded) and (b) - this is perhaps the more important point - when push comes to shove, Tory donors will put their collective foot down.

Remember this is all about the Tory party. Theresa has a sincere attachment and loyalty to her party. Leaving the single market may destroy the Conservative party. She will resist doing it.

However, right now her problem is that she needs something that looks like a duck and quacks, very loudly, in a very duck-like fashion - but that isn't a duck. Unfortunately, she hasn't yet worked out what this duck-not-duck policy actually is yet ...

SwedishEdith · 08/01/2017 22:24

I think your analysis is correct Misti.

TatianaLarina · 08/01/2017 22:24

I don't share your optimism.

May's hinted strongly that's the way we're going, what would be the point of that if she is just going to turn round and say we're not when it comes to the point?

Rogers was quoted as saying that his "biggest fear was that the biggest issue is not hard or soft Brexit, but whether we have an orderly or a disorderly Brexit. He thinks we are heading for a car crash, where we don’t get a deal and we crash out with nothing. Downing Street’s view was that he should stop being such a pessimist".

There's no question leaving the single market will destroy the Tories and the economy.

Indications from the civil service and the city are that May really hasn't grasped what's coming.

mathanxiety · 08/01/2017 22:31

I would have thought this is due to much much higher housing costs combined with wage stagnation rather than education. How should the education system adapt?

Imo, above all, the education system needs to eliminate the 'them and us' element. British culture features a strong belief that society requires an elite group, a belief in natural ability, and of course the other side of the coin is people without natural ability who will always be the also-rans. British education is all about producing an elite. The by-product (a huge group) is considered expendable as long as an elite can be nurtured. It's a very dangerous and counter productive set of suppositions.
www.educationengland.org.uk/articles/27grouping.html An interesting account of the priorities and deeply embedded assumptions in English education, 'an education based on division and segregation at every level.' There is a very strong opposition to egalitarian education in England. You can see evidence of traditionalist/segregationist thought in Theresa May's idea of reintroducing grammars.
(Please note that Richard Lynn, eugenicist and white supremacist mentioned in the article, was a professor at Dublin's Economic and Social Research Institute - among other places - not 'Dublin University' mentioned in the article. The ESRI is not a university).
Nothing contributes to a sense of being left behind, unheard and worth nothing than actually being left behind at age 7 or age 11.

....

"The path to Auschwitz was paved with indifference...not everyone in Germany had to be a raging anti semite......they just had to be apathetic."
I suspect they also had other priorities that they placed higher than attention to the fate of the Jews, or in other words, accepted was ok to break eggs if the result was going to be omelettes.

I also agree with Mistigri that the volume of the argument makes a difference, but sadly it is not necessarily the uneducated who are baying for the right wing policies.

Mistigri · 08/01/2017 22:36

I'm not particularly optimistic tatiana. May is desperately stalling in the hope that something will come along that quacks convincingly but isn't a duck (ie something that gives a soft brexit to industry, while giving the impression of control over FoM to the stupider or more racist parts of the electorate, and which can be sold as such to the proprietors of the Mail and the Express).

Obviously this is a long shot, because finding the mythical quacking non-duck may prove impossible. Personally I think a chaotic brexit may now be the most likely outcome, but this may depend on whether A50 is legally reversible or not.

RedToothBrush · 08/01/2017 22:45

Can the Conservative party survive Brexit in the long run? Can Labour for that matter?

Something has to give at some point.

Noting tomorrow's front page of the sun reads - kill by mouth. 2 die a day of starvation or thirst on NHS.

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tiggytape · 08/01/2017 22:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CardinalSin · 08/01/2017 23:19

Always followed these with interest, thank you Red.

Only really wanted to comment that I think we desperately need Spitting Image, or something similar, as a counterbalance to the puffed-up self-importance of today's politicians, boosted by the odious likes of the Fail and Express. Spitting Image was high profile and viewed by millions every week.

Mistigri · 08/01/2017 23:38

control of borders excludes Single Market membership

Single market membership isn't about control of borders, which of course we already have as we are outside schenghen.

tiggytape · 09/01/2017 00:08

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mathanxiety · 09/01/2017 03:03

www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38546820

'Theresa May: UK cannot keep 'bits' of EU membership'

Seems to me she has just said it.

Comment by Susana Mendonca:
'Mrs May said the UK would have control of its borders and the best possible trade deal with the EU. She didn't commit to maintaining "single market access", and she suggested that people who thought the country could keep "bits of EU membership" were missing the point that it "would be leaving".

This failure to commit to the single market will be music to the ears of Brexiteers. To Remainers it will raise concerns that a "hard Brexit" could be on the offing.'
....

'Mrs May told Sky: "Over the coming weeks, I'll be setting out more details of my plan for Britain. Yes, that's about getting the right deal for Brexit, but it is also about economic reform...

"It's about getting the right deal internationally, but it's also about a fair deal at home."'
I think she is a hard right ideologue - thank you RTB for your OP illustrating that - and people should be nervous about the promised 'economic reform'.

missmoon · 09/01/2017 06:50

"Vince Cable has said as much for the LibDems (although of course he is not an MP)"

It's very much not Lib Dem policy, and the Lib Dems have put out statement to this effect (as well as several statement by individual Lib Dem leaders). Although I agree that for some bizarre reason this appears to be a developing consensus.

tiggytape · 09/01/2017 07:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mistigri · 09/01/2017 07:24

That consensus does seem to be there across many parties and across both the leave and remain factions.

I'm not at all sure that this is true. There is a big chunk of opportunism in Starmer's position, for a start (very disappointed in him). And many of the public statements by these people have been very carefully parsed to permit future deniability.