to share with you the croudfund link for the new legal action to stop brexit

[MarieBurnham]

www.crowdjustice.org/case/brexit-for-the-100/

I've only given a tenner, but there are plenty of rich people (unless it's all stealth boasting about dipique candles) here, so we should be able to help.

It's currently at 18.507k and needs 70!

I don't mean 'current' as in 'currently living overseas'.

I mean they've gone, fairly recently, through the process of finding work and obtaining a visa. People who've emigrated ages ago will have had a completely different experience. You did mention that your friends had been working happily out of the EU for years.

If you're going to say all your happily settled friends did emigrate quite recently, then they're probably not all that settled, in legal terms. I know you're steadfastly ignoring all the small technicalities like having no permanent right to work or stay in your new country, and fewer benefits or securities than its citizens, but in every country your rights and entitlements are limited until you become a citizen. This isn't a big deal if you're young and transient, but it's a huge issue when you have a family, or property, or a business.

Australia, New Zealand, America and Canada all require multiple years of legal residency before you can even apply to be a citizen; around six, on average. Some of them require that residency must be as a permanent resident (ie greencard-holder or equivalent), which is often a status you can only gain after a specified amount of time working on a limited-term visa; it may take several years of this before you can bump up to permanent resident, and then start the citizenship clock.

So it takes a long time and a lot of effort to become a citizen. Until you are a citizen, you can't truly call this country your home. Obviously, it may feel like home, and you may have raised a family or bought a house or contributed lots, but on a purely legal basis you're not quite fixed.

Either your happily-settled friends emigrated years ago, long enough for them to them to have eventually gained citizenship, or they're only allowed to stay in their new country for as long as their visas state or they comply with the terms of their permanent residency.

But you're not interested in the details. You've repeatedly ignored all attempts to show the difference between moving/working somewhere as a right, and moving/working somewhere on application: the additional money, time and obstacles. You're more interested in trivialising everyone's concerns: doom-sayers, bee in your bonnet, need to get out more.

You just have a lot of friends, mango. If you have a lot more than 50 outside the EU you must have thousands still here. I am impressed.

Yes, mango said that her friends were only educated to secondary level, some just to gcse

I for one am pretty impressed by Mango's probably-a-lot-more-than-50 internationally mobile non-educated friends

Wow - 'only to GCSE' - you do realise that many many people are only educated to GCSE and learn their skills on the job. That does NOT make them uneducated. It means they have learnt their skills on the job. And probably find it a LOT easier to get work than many graduates.

Permit me to doubt that it's as easy as some brexiters would like you to believe, especially if they are curiously reluctant to provide any specifics

I think we are MASSIVELY missing the point.

Leaving the EU will mean that anyone in the UK has just lost out on an easy way of working abroad.

There are still opportunities to work abroad - it's just a lot harder - especially if you don't have the right skills in demand.

But for most people, it will be impossible to work abroad.

Ok, ami, as I said, call it non-degree-educated. I find it a little hard to believe that qualifications don't help when trying to emigrate, all other things being equal, but that wasn't really the point.

But ami, that is exactly the point people are making

You just have a lot of friends, mango. If you have a lot more than 50 outside the EU you must have thousands still here. I am impressed.

Why the sarcasm?
My former job I started in 1995 - no qualifications past high school.
I left last year after 20 years.

Over 20 years I worked in 10 different locations & in numerous roles within those locations.
My work-gained quals, skills & experience mean that I meet the criteria for skill shortages in countless countries.
All the friends I've worked with over those 20 years have the same skills etc as me.

Those that moved away to work have way more than me now obviously, and I have no inclination to carry in in my former line of work hence I'm now at uni studying something completely different.

We don't all work in white collar roles you know.

The simple point is:

We used to be able to work in Europe no questions asked.
Now we probably won't be able to.

We can still work abroad IF we have the right skills. It's not easy but it's doable. Easier for some countries than others.

Leaving the EU will mean that anyone in the UK has just lost out on an easy way of working abroad.

There are still opportunities to work abroad - it's just a lot harder - especially if you don't have the right skills in demand.

That's exactly the point that I was making: it's possible for some (but complicated and often expensive and/ or timeconsuming) but impossible for many.

No I really am quite impressed mango. It is a lot of people to keep up with. But also, as I said geniunely intrigued to know how you met them. What was your line of work?

Why does it matter?

But ami, that is exactly the point people are making

People seem to have latched on to mango and her friends and don't seem to believe her friends who don't have degrees etc can work abroad.

Of course you can work abroad IF you have the right skills and these skills ARE IN DEMAND.

But it's not that easy compared to working in Europe.

I am just not sure why people are going on at mango.

What was your line of work

It's irrelevant. And slightly derailing

Yes ami, but so many, and she did make it sound as though they had all found it very easy to do so; that is why people are asking these questions.

Ami, it's because some people cannot believe that anything less than degree educated is not worthy.

Many seem to have blinkers on wrt other jobs and what they entail.
Trade work & skills are hugely undervalued in this country.

and she did make it sound as though they had all found it very easy to do so

Maybe they did.

It's slightly irrelevant though to the actual topic.

It's also reversable. What skills do we need here? How much immigration do we need? Will we be able to provide the infrastructure?

It doesn't matter at all of course. It's just a little hard to picture and a little more detail might make it a lot more convincing. But you obviously don't have to answer, and that's fine.

Trade work & skills are hugely undervalued in this country

I should have been a plumber. Except I'd have caused a leak somewhere.

"Ami, it's because some people cannot believe that anything less than degree educated is not worthy."

Mango, give it a rest. You were the one that specified their level of education.

"Trade work & skills are hugely undervalued in this country."

I'll agree with you there. It is a problem. (Hence the need for all those Eastern European plumbers.)

Hence the need for all those Eastern European plumbers

And that's the issue. How are we going to tackle the skills shortage?

Will we adopt the Australian model?

I'm a qualified mechanic/technician.
Over the years as I progressed I had to do more than just the core, hands on work - also q'd in H & S, Human Factors, intermediate management. Also have ticks for supervisory stuff & the management of the documentation & p/work that goes with the controller type roles.
By the end I had responsibility for signing off completely on things - if I didn't do my job properly people could die (very dramatic, but true nonetheless).

Loads more than that, but the point is that (like me) those friends of mine had desirable skills & experience.

*Hence the need for all those Eastern European plumbers

And that's the issue. How are we going to tackle the skills shortage?*

My 14 yr old is interested in plumber/leckie/gas type jobs actually.
His school has a joint enterprise thing with the local technical college who are massively pushing those courses now, with apprenticeships alongside.

There's loads of money to be made in those trades if you're good.

Thanks mango, that does make sense.

Yes, one would hope that a key part of any Brexit plan, if anything like one ever emerges, will be addressing skills shortages through education, training and apprenticeships. Whether there will be any money to make this happen is another matter unfortunately.

Put it this way Mango - when you have finished your degree, if you fancied a spell going to Germany or Netherlands or where-ever in the EU you could just buy an Easyjet ticket and go. Yes, there will be formalities at the other end, like Nat Ins, but there is for anyone starting work in this country.

If you want to go to Australia - it depends on what you are studying and whether your skill would be needed.

I'm retired.
If I chose to move to Canada, I might be able to get in because we have close relatives there, who could sponsor me. But there is no reciprocal arrangement re pensions, so my state pension would be frozen at the level it is now.

To retire to Australia - I am just looking it up - some of the things I would need
have a minimum assets legally owned and lawfully acquired by yourself, or yourself and your spouse, capable of and available to transfer to Australia of:
A$500,000 if you have indicated to your sponsoring state or territory government agency that you intend to live in a regional/low growth area of Australia; OR
A$750,000 if you have indicated to your sponsoring state or territory government agency that you do not intend to live in a regional/low growth area of Australia
have a minimum net income stream (for example, pension rights) that can be accessed for yourself or yourself and your spouse of:
A$50,000 annually if you have indicated to your sponsoring state or territory government agency that you intend to live in regional/low growth area of Australia.... And on and on.

Look up retiring to Spain and it's all about choosing where to live. None of this needing €xxxxx and compulsory health insurance etc. etc.. At the moment I could just go and under the current arrangements I can have an uprated State Pension paid there plus obtain health care under reciprocal arrangements.