to share with you the croudfund link for the new legal action to stop brexit

[MarieBurnham]

www.crowdjustice.org/case/brexit-for-the-100/

I've only given a tenner, but there are plenty of rich people (unless it's all stealth boasting about dipique candles) here, so we should be able to help.

It's currently at 18.507k and needs 70!

[Peregrina]

Yes, one would hope that a key part of any Brexit plan, if anything like one ever emerges, will be addressing skills shortages through education, training and apprenticeships.

There is absolutely nothing stopping us doing this now. The EU hasn't said that we can't have apprenticeships. Successive Governments, both Tory and Labour have been dismissive of providing good quality technical education, being totally hung up on A levels.

[amispartacus]

Put it this way Mango - when you have finished your degree, if you fancied a spell going to Germany or Netherlands or where-ever in the EU you could just buy an Easyjet ticket and go. Yes, there will be formalities at the other end, like Nat Ins, but there is for anyone starting work in this country

I think mango probably gets that. But I wouldn't want to put words in her mouth,

[MangoMoon]

Put it this way Mango - when you have finished your degree

Peregrina, if judging by today is anything to go by I won't be finishing it!!

I am supposed to be revising for my exams which are this week & next and instead I've been dicking around on MN...

(I read the rest of your post too btw, and I do get it, I'm not ignoring or dismissing everything that's posted even though it may come across that way at times).

[Kaija]

Absolutely Peregrina. And to be honest I don't hold out much hope.

The urgency of this issue might come to the fore once those shortages start to bite however, and it if one area that most pro- and anti-EU people can probably agree on. But it costs money of course, and if tax revenue is going to be significantly reduced, as looks extremely likely, it is difficult to see it happening.

[ARumWithAView]

Peregrina exactly. We're about to remove an relatively easy, comparatively low-cost and universally-available route to overseas work/residency/retirement. Saying we'll do fine in other countries and glossing over the details doesn't change this. We have voted away more robust rights and a wider range of opportunities closer to home. That's not 'the end is nigh' doom-mongering: it's just a fact.

It's like when your bank closes its local branch and free ATM, but cheerfully reminds you that you're welcome to visit their other location, which is a mere train, bus-ride and short walk away, appointment necessary, assistance and transactions subject to fee, opening hours varied and subject to change. Yay.

[amispartacus]

We're about to remove an relatively easy, comparatively low-cost and universally-available route to overseas work/residency/retirement

OTOH - you could argue that people who live in this country are fed up with 'people coming over here and taking our jobs'.

Yes - we have removed an easy way of moving abroad and working abroad - where we are competing with equally qualified people for the same resources as the locals.

But we have probably removed an easy way for people coming here to compete for the same jobs as the locals.

How do you persuade someone who was born in the UK that it's ok for someone from abroad to have the same rights they have to a job?

[JustAnotherSimpleOldNumber]

We're about to remove an relatively easy, comparatively low-cost and universally-available route to overseas work/residency/retirement.

Keep in mind that we have millions currently poor, resorting to food banks and working many hours more than they are paid for just to keep their own businesses open. People for whom making it to next week is a real issue, let alone to retirment.

We have over 60,000 people currently homeless with the death rate getting higher and higher each year.

These are some of the people who feel goblisation has done nothing for them, they are all but forgotten.

[Kaija]

Leaving the EU is not going to end globalisation.

What do you think this government is going to do for those people?

[JustAnotherSimpleOldNumber]

This talk of going to the EU to reitre and get residency is ALREADY out of the reach of so many people. Those whingings that Pentions have taken a hit should remember and be pleased they HAVE a pension.

[JustAnotherSimpleOldNumber]

Leaving the EU is not going to end globalisation. What do you think this government is going to do for those people?

I know that, but Pro EUers rarely understand the situation for so many people and why they voted the way they did. Because they saw no benifits at all.

[Kaija]

Many pro-EU people were vociferous in opposing Tory austerity before Brexit, while the most prominent Beexiteers certainly were not.

People may not think they saw any benefits of EU membership, but that doesn't mean they weren't there. Anyone who relies on public services, or who will struggle to absorb coming price rises is likely to find things a lot tougher.

[Cupofteaandtoilet]

My DH has worked for a company in the automotive industry for 15 years. During that time there has been massive change in the workforce (design tech) - the majority are now Indian. These are educated, intelligent, skilled workers who are prepared to work for less money, live here cheaply and send money 'home' to build a house for future use. Hindi is widely spoken in the office. These jobs are well paid, sought after positions that many British workers could do. Salaries have dropped considerably (literally, not just in real terms) over the last 15 years. This is not an EU issue.

I am an ardent remainer for many, many reasons. I am also in favour of FOM. Just wanted to point out that the problem that some have with immigration will not be solved by leaving the EU.

Also, Mango; I've enjoyed many of your posts on other threads but I do find the 50+ A level max friends working abroad stretches my imagination. Sorry.

[amispartacus]

These are educated, intelligent, skilled workers who are prepared to work for less money, live here cheaply and send money 'home' to build a house for future use

Does being Indian help? Why are we allowing people to work here from non EU countries if we have people here who can do the job?

[JustAnotherSimpleOldNumber]

Lack of education, or laziness or racism or populism is onyl going to make up a tiny amount of the 54%.

As has been suggested on this thread There's a whole increasing section of society which continually gets failed, a section which is increasing year upon year, nothing has changed.

People may not think they saw any benefits of EU membership, but that doesn't mean they weren't there

The raminers didn't and are still not doing anything to highlight what the EU do for these people. not once did i see anything which highlighted EU funded scenes for mental health for example. I know they are there, but many don't.

Instead they were (and still are) insulting others. How will this help?

[MangoMoon]

It may stretch your imagination, but it is true nonetheless.
As I said, they have desirable and in demand skills.
(Not formally educated beyond GCSE in most cases tbh, not even A level, but with trade based qualifications gained as they progressed in work).

[Kaija]

Just, I think you have to take the left behind narrative with a pinch of salt. While there was a strong correlation between voting patterns and age/education, it was much weaker with income. Plenty of comfortable middle and high income people voted leave.

[JustAnotherSimpleOldNumber]

Plenty of comfortable middle and high income people voted leave.

And there are many reasons...

Let's just forget a reason why because you don't like it?

[Peregrina]

No one was whinging about pensions taking a hit. It's just a statement of fact, that if you paid for your state pension for it was then 40 years worth of contributions and retire to Spain, you will get it paid at the same rate as if you stayed in the UK. If you go to Canada you won't, it will be frozen at the rate going at the time you left. I think Australia is the same.

So not only might the health care of the pensioners in Spain be hit, they might also find that their automatic pension uprates stop, which would be another reason for them to want to return home.

[Kaija]

I'm not sure what you mean by that just. Yes there were lots of different reasons why people voted leave - I couldn't agree more.

[JustAnotherSimpleOldNumber]

It's just a statement of fact

Yes, a statement of fact people were whinging about.

[whatwouldrondo]

I suspect Mango's friend's ability to work in other countries arises from their shared military background, which is another plus on a CV, not to mention opening up opportunities in places like Iraq , that is not available to everyone. One of my family members, who went for an apprenticeship rather than academic qualifications is practicing his trade in France, he would have liked to have stayed in New Zealand where he worked for six months on a traveller's working visa, or gone on to other non EU countries, but neither New Zealand or Australia or Hong Kong have need of his skills so they were not an option for him. He is obviously now very concerned that the UK may be his only option.

China interestingly will only grant citizenship to you if you establish chinese ethnicity. Of course they will let you live and work there as long as you are of use to them but you have even fewer/ different rights. A friend actually went to a lot of effort to get Chinese citizenship, or rather his mother thoroughly enjoyed going to a lot of effort to establish their chineseness, and then realised that along with the permanent right to live and work there, he had earned the right to a bullet in the back of the neck without much due legal process......

[amispartacus]

but neither New Zealand or Australia or Hong Kong have need of his skills so they were not an option for him. He is obviously now very concerned that the UK may be his only option

And if we only want skilled people here, then that's fair enough.

If we want free movement, then we have to accept free movement. If we only want skilled workers, then only skilled workers will have the opportunities.

[Peregrina]

Yes, a statement of fact people were whinging about.

Who exactly was whinging? If you are trying to get at me, you are wasting your breathe. As it happens I have no desire to emigrate to Canada, Australia or Spain.

If you are talking about those people who already live in Spain, who were promised in the 2015 manifesto that legislation would be enacted for them to have a vote, but then found that it wasn't enacted in time, (still hasn't been) for them to vote in the Referendum, but now find that rug has been pulled from under their financial plans for the future, then yes, they have a legitimate concern. It ought to concern Brexiters too, just how well is an already overstretched NHS going to cope with EU citizens currently working in it, taking the hint that they are not wanted and going elsewhere, and eldery pensioners with health conditions returning from Spain and needing health care. Details like that don't seem to concern Brexiters though.

[MangoMoon]

I suspect Mango's friend's ability to work in other countries arises from their shared military background, which is another plus on a CV, not to mention opening up opportunities in places like Iraq

The shared background does mean that their networking opportunities are massive, yes, but they are not doing 'military work' in the sense that you imply.

They are civilians doing skilled trade stuff.

[JustAnotherSimpleOldNumber]

Who exactly was whinging? If you are trying to get at me, you are wasting your breathe.

I had no idea you even mentioned pensions.