to share with you the croudfund link for the new legal action to stop brexit

[MarieBurnham]

www.crowdjustice.org/case/brexit-for-the-100/

I've only given a tenner, but there are plenty of rich people (unless it's all stealth boasting about dipique candles) here, so we should be able to help.

It's currently at 18.507k and needs 70!

Actually, I'd love to move to India. Hopefully my retirement fortune might go a bit further there.

Please explain how your children will have MORE opportunities

Because we we will be able to develop closer ties and deals with countries outside of the EU.

Yes it is. It's called freedom of movement

Could you explain to me then if I moved my family to Poland for example where would I live, who would pay for all the bills I have. Would Poland give me a house and cover all my expenses like living in the UK does.

It just seems like one way traffic. Freedom of movement to move to a richer country.

Because we we will be able to develop closer ties and deals with countries outside of the EU

Your children will have EXACTLY the same opportunities to work in other countries as they do know. They will just find it more difficult to work in Europe.

Want to work in Poland. Yes you can. Go there, find work. Get a job,. You have as much opportunity as other people. But you may well have to rely on their social security system if you can't find work. I don't know about their social security system and how people from outside Poland are treated.

But you can go there. It's nice. I recommend it.

Would Poland give me a house and cover all my expenses like living in the UK does

Is this what happens then in the UK?

It just seems like one way traffic. Freedom of movement to move to a richer country

Do you know how many people in the UK emigrated to Europe? Which countries they work in?

I do believe there are UK citizens working in Europe. I wonder what those countries think of that?

in reality when I buy something from outside the EU, it is cheaper than in the EU

Only if it's made using very cheap labour though! There's nothing intrinsically cheaper about manufacturing things in China, Vietnam, Turkey etc, it's almost entirely down to their lower wages. It's not being outside the EU that makes them cheaper.

No-one doesn't buy Macs because they are an American company do they? It's not the nationality of the company that's important, it's where the goods are made. As it happens there's 0% import duty on laptop computers into the EU anyway so it doesn't make any difference where they're made. They're not an important export for the UK though - cars are.

Actually many companies are moving their operations to poland now so the possibilty that workers reallocate to poland from the Uk because that is increasingly where the jobs will be is not that remote. Workers rights are currently very strong in Poland too.

Would Poland give me a house and cover all my expenses like living in the UK does.

Someone watches too much channel 5. 🙄

Because we we will be able to develop closer ties and deals with countries outside of the EU

You are confusing international trade deals and the freedom of movement for private citizens - they are not the same thing -unless you are personally negotiating a trade deal with China?

It just seems like one way traffic.
Maybe because you haven't lived abroad or researched it. There are about 1.2 million UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU.

Top countries for UK emigrants are Australia, USA, Spain and China. I can't see UK citizens being given extra opportunities to move there compared to what we already have.

France, Germany, India and Poland also seem popular

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11620356/Emigration-nation-who-are-the-thousands-fleeing-Britain-each-year.html

Bloody Brits going to Europe and claiming benefits which are more generous than in the UK

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu

*Top countries for UK emigrants are Australia, USA, Spain and China. I can't see UK citizens being given extra opportunities to move there compared to what we already have.

France, Germany, India and Poland also seem popular*

From that article:

Emigration figures:

Australia - 43,000
USA - 23,000
Spain - 16,000
China - 16,000
France - 15,000
Germany
India
Republic of Ireland
Canada
Poland
New Zealand
Others...(not named)

Out of the top 12 countries 5 were EU, with far smaller numbers going to EU than to non-EU.
It would seem that as a nation we do perfectly ok with going off to countries outwith the EU.

It would seem that as a nation we do perfectly ok with going off to countries outwith the EU.

It's not the same criteria though as others have pointed out. Almost anybody had the right to move within the EU - the same is not true for Australia and the US. You can't argue that unless you believe that freedom of movement is only for the rich.

Not just for the rich, also for the skilled, Whatever that skill may be.

Could be filling a shortage of bricklayers, could be nurses, could be Aircraft techies.

Most people do not move somewhere unless they've a job to go to.
The notion that 'our children' will just suddenly utilise their right to free movement one day and skip off to Poland with no job & no idea of what they're going to do when they get there is a ridiculous hypothetical argument.

Some do, certainly, but not in the numbers that move with a job lined up already.
Those people who have jobs lined up will still be able to move - as evidenced by the figures quoted for non-EU emigration.

Melissa

I know that 5 did not 'win anything in the Italian referendum, but their drive made sure the current party lost. The people generally did not vote on the issues, even if you did.

EU import duties on agricultural produce and policy of supporting export by paying farmers is well known to be damaging to the third world.

Everyone (even the EU scientists) agree that Golden rice will save lives and prevent blindness, but the EU government, in thrall to special interest groups, such as Greenpeace, continue to argue against GM foods.

You are wrong, wronger than a wrong person in wrong town.

Most people do not move somewhere unless they've a job to go to.

Many people do in fact do just this. I did it myself! What do you think a million plus British people are doing in France, Spain etc? Most did not have a job before moving.

They moved

• to retire to the sun
• for lifestyle reasons
• to study or learn a language
• to follow a partner or parent

It's quite possible that a significant proportion of these people will have to return to the UK if things go pear-shaped, and even if there is a relatively favourable agreement that allows people with a job (or who have a past history of social contributions in their host state) to remain.

Most EU citizens in the UK have paid both tax and NI; many British people living in EU states pay little tax and have never paid into local social security systems (which in consequence may not insure them post brexit).

And to add to amispartacus' point above, a large number of British migrants in France who are not retired are claiming benefits. I help run an information group for British families living in France and the number one subject of enquiry is means-tested family benefits.

If net migration is your genuine concern (rather than just people who aren't the same colour/ culture and speak another language as well as english) then you need to consider both sides of the net migration coin.

What may well happen is that you lose the cultured German engineers who work as managers at my employer's UK sites, and get back retired people who may have no real way of supporting themselves and do not contribute to the tax pot. Does Britain want people like my husband's aunt and uncle back? Retured to Portugal on a low retirement income because it goes further there than in Stoke on Trent; may be forced to return to the UK with nowhere to live and serious health problems...

I'm sick of all these completely inaccurate statements about moving to a country outside the EU being largely a matter of completing fiddly paperwork. It bears no resemblance to the process of actually getting visa sponsorship, which is invariably expensive, time-consuming and unpredictable. You then have very limited rights when you move -- having to leave at zero notice because your employer has gone bankrupt; being stuck in a terrible working environment because quitting or getting fired will mean you (and your family) will have to immediately leave the country; your children 'ageing out' of their dependent visas age 21 (or 18) and having to leave the country they consider home.

And losing the right to work in the EU isn't just going to disadvantage UK job applicants in Europe. It's a real loss for your CV if you want to work anywhere overseas. Many international companies prefer to hire people who can operate in multiple territories without additional costs or formalities.

Rum yes, international mobility is a major headache for my employer. Even with sponsorship, it's not that simple for people to move around; indeed in the UK it's now so difficult that my employer has moved new R&D investment outside the UK.

Increasingly, multinationals will prefer candidates with EU citizenship over UK candidates, for roles that require mobility. (EU candidates are already at an advantage because they usually have more than one language).

My brother lives in rural Poland. And he is forever arguing that their hospitals are better resourced than NHS. Looks too cold for me though.

I'm sick of all these completely inaccurate statements about moving to a country outside the EU being largely a matter of completing fiddly paperwork

I moved to Australia when I was 25. I didn't have a job but I did have to do a lot of 'fiddly paperwork'. It was points based - and I had a lot of points based on degree, language and work experience. I don't know if things have changed but it did take a long time to do and a lot of bureaucracy.

I could have moved to France without worrying about the paperwork.

Could you explain to me then if I moved my family to Poland

I'm sorry but if you think it's impossible for you to move to Poland and there's just a bit of fiddly paperwork (and our EU membership) standing between you and moving to the US, or Brazil or North Korea, you are so deluded there is no point having a discussion with you.

Those people who have jobs lined up will still be able to move - as evidenced by the figures quoted for non-EU emigration.

The odds of getting a job 'lined up' in a country where you do not already have permission to live or work are vastly reduced, especially if you want something more secure than a temporary holiday job. For an overseas company to sponsor your visa, you need to justify the time, inconvenience and cost this involves, and answer implicitly, or actually prove in your application the question 'why you, and not one of the x million citizens who are here already and ready to start work?'.

Everyone has some specialist skill. Most people don't have the high level of provable specialist skill that encourages an overseas employer to spend thousands of pounds and wait months for their arrival. Yes, some counties offer points-based systems, or even encourage people in short-staffed professions to apply -- but it's disingenuous to cherry-pick those friendly-sounding set-ups. Across the board, the requirements can be and mostly are a lot harsher, restricting entry to those with high levels of education, money to invest, or who are in upper management. Those people in a position to 'line up' their international jobs are sounding an awful lot like the dreaded 'elites' we're all supposed to disdain so much. So, that's great. Post-Brexit, horizons for average UK citizen: curtailed. But the elites are still fine.

The bricklayer, the nurse -- no one in this level of job is getting a work visa to America. A large proportion of UK citizens who emigrate there do so because they have an American spouse or some other family claim to citizenship, not because a company has brought them over.

For a US company to bring in an international new-hire on an H visa costs about $5k; they must apply for you in April, and wait until October, and then there's a lottery because the H category is usually oversubscribed. You must have a university degree or 12 years' experience. Your dependents may not work. If you already work in one of their international offices and they want to transfer you on an L visa, you have to be employed at management level and have worked there for at least 3 years. If you want an O visa for exceptional talent, your applicant must provide proof that you've been nationally or internationally recognised, preferably with media clippings, references etc.

I know we're not just talking about America, but I list all this visa-related hoop-jumping (and I haven't even started on the fees! the embassy interviews! the biometrics!) because it's infuriating to see how people minimize what we're going to lose when our right to live and work in the EU disappears. Oh, it's not a big deal -- just line up a job elsewhere, and fill out the forms. In most cases, that's wishful thinking. We've greatly limited our own options and opportunities. If you want to explain how that's worth it, then go ahead, but don't pretend it's not a massive disadvantage.

I'm always bemused by brexiters who think it's so easy to move abroad.

I moved to France with my partner in 1998, at a time when free movement existed in theory but was still only partially effective in practice. My British OH - with the best part of £100k in assets, not including property - was refused a French residence permit on the grounds that he did not meet the criteria of being self-supporting. We had to get married for him to be allowed to stay.

And that was in the EU!

Not looking forward to a return to residence cards especially if we end up (as seems likely) requiring visas too.