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Brexit

to share with you the croudfund link for the new legal action to stop brexit

638 replies

MarieBurnham · 10/12/2016 09:23

www.crowdjustice.org/case/brexit-for-the-100/

I've only given a tenner, but there are plenty of rich people (unless it's all stealth boasting about dipique candles) here, so we should be able to help.

It's currently at 18.507k and needs 70!

OP posts:
MangoMoon · 13/12/2016 13:31

Across the board, the requirements can be and mostly are a lot harsher, restricting entry to those with high levels of education, money to invest, or who are in upper management. Those people in a position to 'line up' their international jobs are sounding an awful lot like the dreaded 'elites' we're all supposed to disdain so much.

Not at all.
I've got loads of friends who work outwith the eu - upwards of 50.

Not one is a high level of education, money to invest or upper management.
Neither are they remotely 'elite'.

What they all have in common though is that they possessed skills that were required in their new country of work.
(Not all the same work type either, massively varied skill sets).

Marmitelover55 · 13/12/2016 17:25

Wow 50 - that's a lot of friends working in non EU countries! Just out of interest how many do you have working in EU countries and what are their thoughts about Brexit?

whatwouldrondo · 13/12/2016 17:30

And how many of them are in countries like Australia, New Zealand Hong Kong and Canada?

ARumWithAView · 13/12/2016 19:19

If you have 50 friends, all working in non-EU countries on employment visas (or who entered via that route), all in trade or industrial or natural-talent-based (ie modelling) jobs with no educational pre-requisites, none of them in upper management, all with limited financial assets, and they've all emigrated to 1st world counties within the last decade -- maybe the next time you all catch up, you could ask them:

  • how long did your visa application process last, from start to clearing airport passport control?
  • did you have to attend a visa interview at the country's embassy, usually in London? if approved, did you have to temporarily leave your passport there?
  • how much did the process cost, including visa fees, medical assessment, biometrics, qualification/experience accreditation charges, immigration agent, notary or legal fees?
  • are you a permanent resident of your country (this isn't the same as being a citizen)? under what circumstances can this be revoked?
  • if you're on a visa, what legal right do you have to remain if your job disappears? can you change jobs or move to a different employer? if not, how many days/weeks of leeway do you have, after losing employment, to leave the country?
  • are your spouse and dependents permitted to work without restriction?
  • will your dependents be able to stay in the country when they turn 18/21?
  • do you have to carry an alien registration card?
  • will a relatively minor crime result in your deportation or non-renewal of visa?
  • when your fixed-term visa expires, can you renew it in-country or do you have to leave to do a visa run? If you can extend your visa status in-country, do you still have to make an appointment at your host's embassy the next time you leave the country, to get a new visa physically applied to your passport (because you can't re-enter the country without it)?
  • how many years until you can apply for citizenship? what's the citizenship application cost? will you have to account for all time spent out of the host country during the qualifying period? will you have to take a citizenship exam?
  • do you pay full taxes without being able to vote or recieve other standard benefits available to citizens, such as state-subsidized healthcare?

I'm sure they'll all be very excited to tell you about their special visa journey. It's really not much different from having the legal right to live and work in a country. Apart from the additional time, costs, procedures, limitations and uncertainty.

Melassa · 13/12/2016 20:28

Caroldecker

It was the WHO who decided that golden rice wasn't worth the risk, not least because beta carotene is easily available from a whole host of other food sources, many of which are easily and cheaply available in the Asian countries the rice was supposed to have helped.

Nothing to do with the EU, wrong acronym. Also the EU let member states opt out of a regional GMO ban, so really they're not imposing blindness 1000s of miles across the globe on anyone.

Anyway, we're really scraping the barrel with these examples. Can you not find anything more "everyday" in the lives of the ordinary enlightened European?

Suppermummy02 · 13/12/2016 20:35

What about all the negative consequences of freedom to move to any country?

Companies don't need to invest in training local populations they can just import skills.
Companies can import cheap labour and drive down local wages.
Mass migration is perceived to destabilise local services, housing and markets.
Wealthier individuals can just move to avoid tax.
Companies can move to avoid taxes.
Wealthier people are move able and more likely to move out of the UK and benefit from the EU.
Poorer people are less able to take advantage of the ability to move and are thus left behind.
Mass migration allows for different cultures to stay segregated.
Lack of integration seems to cause negative fiction to build up between segregated cultures which fuels extremism.
Mass migration to countries with contributory benefits will cause inequality with countries that have non-contributory systems, leading to friction with local long term citizens.

Umm I have forgot, what are the benefits of mass migration again because it seems the bad is out weighing the good, for a lot of hard working families.

MangoMoon · 13/12/2016 20:51

I said upwards of 50 - it's probably a lot more tbh.

I speak to & am up to date with most of them quite regularly (the usual FB stuff) but I'm not about to dump your list of demands onto them ARum.

The ones who have emigrated permanently are in USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand - the ones who have moved for work only (some have taken families, some not), work in Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi, UAE, Bahrain, Mali, Somalia.

There are a few scattered round the EU - mostly Spain & France, I think a couple in Holland and a couple in Germany.

HeCantBeSerious · 13/12/2016 20:59

what are the benefits of mass migration

apart from immigrants to the Uk paying in far more tax than they ever take out, you mean?

Or that the NHS would be a pile of dust without the migrant workers propping it up? (Can't train doctors and nurses overnight. Perhaps you wouldn't mind a decade wait to see a consultant.)

Or that many come and do jobs that Brits turn their noses up at?

MangoMoon · 13/12/2016 21:22

Or that many come and do jobs that Brits turn their noses up at?

Yawn.
Lazy stereotyping.

ARumWithAView · 13/12/2016 21:54

Right, Mango. So no idea of the details, no inclination to enquire, but you're happy to bring these people in as proof that non-EU emigration is relatively open to all.

Meanwhile, we lose the genuinely accessible option to live and work in the EU; a legal entitlement which removes both the complexities/costs of obtaining a visa and the issue of diminished rights and uncertain status which most immigrants face for at least their first few years on a visa.

And, according to general Brexit logic, obtaining working permissions and secure residence in a completely separate non-EU nation (who can charge you whatever they like, change the rules and requirements at any point, give you no particular rights and kick you out at a moment's notice) isn't a big deal -- but exercising your right to live or work in the EU is a privilege restricted to the elites and middle class.

Suppermummy02 · 13/12/2016 21:56

apart from immigrants to the UK paying in far more tax than they ever take out, you mean?

Where is the proof that recent mass migration has increased tax take more than the increased cost on the benefit system + costs on pressures of housing + costs of increased use of the NHS + increased pressure on schools + increased cost of policing + increased cost of companies and individuals moving to pay less tax + increased cost of radicalisation due to lack of integration + increase drain of money leaving UK as its sent 'home' + increased cost of wages being depressed + a lot more costs.

Until you show me that proof I will continue to believe my own anecdotal evidence that free movement costs the country a LOT more than it gains in return.

MangoMoon · 13/12/2016 22:05

Right, Mango. So no idea of the details, no inclination to enquire, but you're happy to bring these people in as proof that non-EU emigration is relatively open to all.

Of course I don't have the inclination to enquire, just because you've demanded I should!!

I merely pointed out that the great white fortress of the EU is not the only way you can ever hope to work abroad.

Every single one of those people has no education past secondary school - many only educated to GCSE level.
They were not massively wealthy when they moved for work, they are not 'elite', they are not upper management level - which was declared upthread as the only people that work abroad outwith the EU.

Why does that offend you so much?

HeCantBeSerious · 13/12/2016 23:13

Until you show me that proof I will continue to believe my own anecdotal evidence

When I'm done laughing at that I will. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

amispartacus · 13/12/2016 23:18

supermummy

What do you think of the migration we had in the 50s and 60s (Windrush and all that)

I am sure many of the arguments you make were made back then. Do you think such migration has been good or bad for the UK (or is it complicated)

amispartacus · 13/12/2016 23:24

supermummy

We will need immigration - skilled and unskilled to supply the labour our ageing population need to maintain the UK economy.

So there will be more people - and that will need more funding of the resources you've mentioned.

Unless you think the UK is sustainable with its own population?

caroldecker · 14/12/2016 01:08

Hecant - basically the research is inconclusive and no-one knows the answer, but it is the square root of bugger all.
We do not need unskilled migration, it encourages businesses and the government not to provide decent pay.
A minimum wage was not required until we had an unlimited pool of people prepared to work for this.

caroldecker · 14/12/2016 01:12

Hecant
here, from your source, is proof that EU immigrtion reduces wages for unskilled workers.

Fawful · 14/12/2016 02:21

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/333083/MAC-Migrantssinlow-skilleddworkFulllreport2014.pdff_

_

Carol and this is where it is explained that by 'lowering wages' what they mean is at most a lowering of £25 per year.
Re: 'We didn't need the minimum wage before immigration started': when was that? 60s? 2008? In the mid 90s I remember welcoming the NMW, yet iirc there wasn't that many of us migrants around.
Yes the UK might not need immigration, but isn't it the case that if you remove the tax receipts from the City following the loss of access to the Single Market that will come with an end of FOM, you remove a lot of funding for services, and you go from society being by and large functioning to no guarantee that it will stay so? I think you lack imagination if you can't picture a very sorry economy with people competing for few jobs and s high unemployment rate.
Increasing manufacturing to make up for this enormous loss: Who wants to work in manufacturing? I don't. Do we want to compete with the far-East in producing stuff, and do we really think this competition will result in higher wages for workers? When most of us at the moment are deciding with our purse to sponsor the cheapest clothes from Bengladesh, do we not know the low price of stuff has a cost? Is manufacturing a race we want to join?
Looking at Canada's economy for instance they have a lot of natural resources. What are we going to do?
Re: 'white fortress', please, Mango, you want to pull up the drawbridge for all but a handful of jobs that you want the whole world to fight for, is that you grand 'open' plan for the UK? As I understand it, the economy will go with the City anyway, so the few opportunities you promise the world might not even ever exist.

Fawful · 14/12/2016 02:22

I'll repost that link again tomorrow, sorry.

Fawful · 14/12/2016 02:47

'9.55 Blinder (2012) argues that public opinion on immigration is actually directed towards ‘imagined migration’, because of the divergence between these public perceptions and the statistical facts on immigration as measured by government and used to inform policy-making.'

ARumWithAView · 14/12/2016 06:33

Every single one of those people has no education past secondary school - many only educated to GCSE level. [...] Why does that offend you so much?

It offends me because you're painting an inaccurate (and, frankly, unconvincing) view of the practicalities or and obstacles to non-EU emigration.

You're ignoring the difficulties of obtaining a visa, even when you're eligible for one.

You're ignoring the difficulties of living in a country where your legal rights are limited, compared to its citizens, and where your future status is never entirely secure (until you obtain citizenship, which is invariably difficult and sometimes impossible).

I've worked in Asia, Europe and America. The difference between working somewhere you must obtain specific permission to enter and visa sponsorship to remain and work, and somewhere you already have the legal right to live and work, is immense. The two are barely comparable. It's utterly misleading to act like one's just a bit more effort than the other, as several people have tried to explain. It's immaterial if you have a thousand friends working in non-EU countries: if you don't know their circumstances or experience, and get all coy when asked, then there's little point bringing them up.

If you took 100 people today, none of them educated past secondary school, the likelihood is that fewer than ten would stand any credible chance of obtaining a working visa for a non-EU, 1st-world country (excepting working-holiday type visas for temporary or manual work). And those ten would not be in a position to pick or choose: they'd be fortunate to find a country which is looking to hire immigrants for specialist skills.

But all of those 100 people would have the right to live and work in the EU.

All the time I've worked outside the EU, alongside non-EU citizens, the overwhelming response to the EU passport is you're so lucky. The amount of options that gives you. So many people would absolutely love to have this open to them, and, wherever possible, many of the Americans, Canadians, Australians etc I know have pursued ancestry claims in order to qualify for a EU passport. It's a huge advantage, and it's extremely grating to hear anyone through complacency, or lack of knowledge shrug it off as, meh, it won't make that much difference because you can always line up a job elsewhere.

Of the fifty people you claim to know, none of them educated past secondary school, I would be entirely unsurprised if this cohort didn't break down into the following groups: a) people who emigrated years ago, under completely different and far more relaxed visa regulations, b) people working with limited rights in a country in which they have no intention of staying (ie Saudi, UAE), c) people working in a country where they would not bring, let alone raise, their family (Iraq, Afganistan), d) people working for the military or on military-related projects and contracts, who have no choice in their destination and don't plan to remain long-term.

The people who have emigrated permanently to USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand in recent years will have either paid thousands of pounds for this, including visa fees and associated costs of medical exams, police reports, qualification/skillset verification, and the costs of eventual naturalization. If they were sponsored by a company who met all these expenses, they will most likely have been tied to this company for a specific period, and their spouses/dependents may not have been eligible to work.

But you're not interested in this. It doesn't fit with the idea that losing EU working rights is a minor inconvenience which doesn't seriously restrict the employment opportunities of millions of people.

Mistigri · 14/12/2016 07:45

I'm always bemused at how easy brexiters find it to move to non EU countries.

They need to come and explain how to my employer's HR people, who spend an inordinate amount of time on this sort of thing - even where people have scarce skills and a job to go to. We find it so hard to import non-EU scientists to the UK that the board made a decision not to bother and to build an R&D centre elsewhere instead.

Even bringing chinese colleagues over for a conference is a major fucking hassle!

HeCantBeSerious · 14/12/2016 07:50

A minimum wage was not required until we had an unlimited pool of people prepared to work for this

Ah yes. I remember 1995. I worked for a whole £2.50 an hour and was bloody grateful for it. Hmm

Mistigri · 14/12/2016 08:13

Absolute bullshit about the minimum wage above.

Employers (not all of them) will pay as little as they can get away with. What stops them getting away with this?

  • effective trades unions
  • enforceable employment law
  • anti-discrimination legislation
  • minimum wage legislation

High net immigration is associated with periods of low unemployment; during recessions, immigration tends to fall (but so do wages).