to share with you the croudfund link for the new legal action to stop brexit

[MarieBurnham]

www.crowdjustice.org/case/brexit-for-the-100/

I've only given a tenner, but there are plenty of rich people (unless it's all stealth boasting about dipique candles) here, so we should be able to help.

It's currently at 18.507k and needs 70!

Re: 'white fortress', please, Mango, you want to pull up the drawbridge for all but a handful of jobs that you want the whole world to fight for, is that you grand 'open' plan for the UK?

What does that sentence even mean?
It makes no sense.

It offends me because you're painting an inaccurate (and, frankly, unconvincing) view of the practicalities or and obstacles to non-EU emigration.

I'm not painting anything.

Anecdote does not equal anecdata etc, I know that, but I'm not doing anything other than relaying the fact that I know several people who work quite happily outwith the EU and have done for years.

If that offends you then you really need to get out more.

The poster up thread is absolutely right about the difficulties getting a work visa outside the EU. When we went to live in Latin America, the only way in was via a complicated sponsored visa, obtained by my husband's employer (obviously he already had a job to go to).

I had no right to work even though I was usefully skilled etc etc, but using what was effectively nepotism and connections, I managed, after 18 months, to secure a spouse's visa, after many visits to a building that was the equivalent of that creaky looking bank in Harry potter and much queuing, sealing, 'notarising' of documents etc. Brexiters need to get out more if they want to pontificate about how easy it is to work outside the EU.

The need to legislate for a national minimum wage etc relates far more strongly to thatcher's assault on trade unions throughout the 1980s, effectively removing the power to collectively bargain decent wages underpinned by strike threat.

A right to an individual hourly rate is not very helpful btw when you have no power to negotiate on the number of hours people work, as we've discovered with the spread of zero hours contracts etc.

And bleakly, everyone has so sucked up the whole 'blame-an-immigrant' narrative that nobody even seems to have noticed that at the same time as launching A50, the government will be ushering in even more draconian restrictions on unions, making it virtually impossible to strike for your wages in this country, impossible to picket without 'wearing an armband', without at least one person giving their personal contact details to the police etc etc

I could add the story of BIL and his emigration to Australia, to the above, to show how difficult it can be. He's back in the UK now, his Australian firm having to make a load of redundancies, of which he was one.

DD is back in the UK for work having worked elsewhere in the EU, but that was a choice - she could have stayed. BIL couldn't stay where he was.

...I'm not doing anything other than relaying the fact that I know several people who work quite happily outwith the EU and have done for years.

Mango, you clearly are trying to give an impression. You are trying to back up your earlier statement that:

It would seem that as a nation we do perfectly ok with going off to countries outwith the EU.

But you have no clear idea of the processes or difficulties your friends faced in emigrating or obtaining temporary work visas, and what their current legal status is. You don't even specify if this is recent experience. It's absolutely pointless at best, and misleading at worst, to trot out anecdata like this to support your argument that loss of EU working rights isn't a huge loss to current and future UK citizens.

Either you don't understand the huge differences involved between needing and not needing a visa, or you're complacent to a 'let them eat cake' level about how this will affect people's options.

The elite will always have multiple options to relocate to virtually anywhere. But, as a direct result of Brexit, all UK citizens, present and future, will have their working rights and freedom of movement curtailed.

Still, that's fine -- no, you can't freely move to Europe any more. Good news, though: you can pay $3600 in visa fees, plus other costs, and travel ten thousand miles to Australia! You can join the army and see different places for free, or temporarily work in a conflict-wrecked country where you wouldn't dare bring your kids! If you have a degree or 12 years' experience, you can persuade a US employer to petition for you, wait six months to see if you're successful, and then move to the US to enjoy residency which can be revoked at any time, and your spouse and dependents can't work! So many options. None of them remotely comparable to the right to live and work in our neighbouring countries.

It's pointless talking about being offended or not this isn't a concept, or a matter of opinion. It is a quantifiable loss. At least people like suppermummy have an actual response to that and, frankly, the courage of their convictions, stating that the damage caused by inward EU immigration outweighed the benefits we got from our own entitlements. I don't agree with her, but it's a position. Whereas people who voted for this without having the guts to acknowledge what they're asking everyone to lose are still trying to pretend there hardly is a loss, and reproach anyone who points out otherwise with ridiculous assertions like 'I know 50 people who work happily overseas but, no, I would never interrogate them with such questions about their legal status and experience' and trivialise concerns with 'oh, you need to get out more'.

Half your post was crossed out btw.

You don't even specify if this is recent experience.

Current experience.

You obviously have a bee in your bonnet about me knowing non-elites who work throughout the world & some who have emigrated, because it doesn't fit with the 'we're ALL DOOMED!' narrative.

Regardless, I know it's just personal experience and I clearly stated that.
It's actually quite a bit upwards of 50 but I've not specifically gone and counted them all and so gave a lesser number so as not to risk exaggeration.
And fwiw, none of them are or have been in the army.
They are a mix of skill sets - engineering technicians, nurses, physical trainers, logistics, fuel specialists etc etc

The emigrants who have settled had skills that were needed in their new country - non graduate skill sets.

MN is obsessed with graduate level qualifications and roles, and office type work.
People with actual hands on skills & experience in various trades move around the world for work quite a bit - as evidenced by the people I know.

Jobs like nursing and midwifery, both highly sought after in Australia and NZ, have been graduate level jobs for a number of years now.

I wouldn't say 'We are doomed' but I have yet to see anything to back up your statement that it's easy to move abroad Mango. Every one I know had a good number of hoops to jump through, taking time and money, as detailed in the various posts above. I don't know the other posters on this thread, but we are all relating similar experiences either first hand or from friends and relatives. You seem to be trying to imply that those people we all know are the ones who are exceptional in the difficulties they have faced.

60 years ago there were the £10 Poms, but that scheme has been long finished.

I'm not trying to dismiss others' experiences at all Peregrina- far from it.

I'm just pointing out that it's not all doom & gloom & it is actually possible - by relating my own knowledge of countless friends that have done it themselves and are doing it now.

All you tend to see are posts about how nobody bar the rich & elite will ever be able to work abroad and it's simply not true - it's not the full picture by any means.

I for one am pretty impressed by Mango's probably-a-lot-more-than-50 internationally mobile non-educated friends. And geniunely intrigued. How did you meet them all? And how do find the time to keep in touch with them all to the extent of knowing the details of their immigration arrangements? And how do you manage the Christmas card list!

Jobs like nursing and midwifery, both highly sought after in Australia and NZ, have been graduate level jobs for a number of years now

I think we are getting off the point slightly.

It is possible - if you have the right skills (graduate / non graduate) that are in demand to work in other countries. It's not easy but doable for some with the RIGHT skills that are in demand.

However, I could just go tomorrow to anywhere in Europe and set up a business. There'd be bureaucracy BUT not being from that country wouldn't be a barrier. Once we have left the EU, I can't do that but someone from another European country can.

Working abroad isn't for everyone but it is for some - for a range of reasons. To escape the economy back home. If things go tits up in the UK but there is a strong economy in Germany, UK workers will find it difficult to go there.

And my 'spouse's visa' was just what it said on the tin. In other words, not only was it dependent on me staying in my specific job - it was also entirely dependent on my husband remaining in his job (and remaining married to me, which fortunately wasn't an issue).

Am not trying to imply either that those that experienced all the hoop jumping are the exception - I'm sure they're not.

But anyone with a desirable skill set has the opportunity to move for work - to keep pushing the narrative that it's practically impossible to do so is disingenuous.
Difficult? Yes.
Involved, long winded bureaucratic process? Yes.
But practically impossible? No.

And I had to renew it periodically, as well as registering with the police etc etc.

I for one am pretty impressed by Mango's probably-a-lot-more-than-50 internationally mobile non-educated friends. And geniunely intrigued.

How wonderfully head-tilty.

How did you meet them all?

Through the course of my life.
Why? How did/do you meet your friends?

And how do find the time to keep in touch with them all to the extent of knowing the details of their immigration arrangements?

As I said, I'm in touch via the usual FB stuff.
And, also as I said, I don't know the intimate details of their immigration arrangements.

And how do you manage the Christmas card list!

Sigh.

mangomoon

Exactly.

We have lost the opportunity to EASILY go and work in Europe.

I also think it might be a lot more difficult to go and retire there. Or just live there. Who knows...

I for one am pretty impressed by Mango's probably-a-lot-more-than-50 internationally mobile non-educated friends

If you work in the building trade, you are probably in demand worldwide.
Or have technical skills learnt on the job.

Countries need your skills. Even if they aren't graduate level jobs. Not sure what 'non educated' means - does it just mean you learnt your trade on the job and not at University?

it is actually possible

Yes, it's possible, but our comparison was with the EU where it's relatively easy. You don't have to fill in x number of forms, you don't have to have a compulsory medical, you don't have to pay $xxxx in fees, you don't have to wait months to see whether your application was successful. You don't have to send your passport and birth certificate off and wait months for them to come back.

Yes, you will almost certainly have to get that country's equivalent of a Nat Ins Number, and possibly/probably some residence documents, but it's much more straightforward.

Depending on what arrangements are made, we could be throwing that ease and convenience away. The way Theresa May is carrying on with her belligerent hostile attitude isn't conducive to productive negotiations.

I see lots of others cross posted whilst I was typing.

Yes, mango said that her friends were only educated to secondary level, some just to gcse. Should perhaps have specified non-degree-educated.

My mind boggles at one person having this number of friends who have all moved outside the EU. And we thought migration was all one way.

Not sure what 'non educated' means - does it just mean you learnt your trade on the job and not at University?

I did say earlier that none of them were educated above secondary school level - I'm pretty sure it wasn't me who used the word 'uneducated' though (I don't think I did anyway).
All of the people I have spoken about learned their skills/trades on the job.

Yes, it's possible, but our comparison was with the EU where it's relatively easy

Exactly. BREXIT has just made things a lot harder for anyone who has the same skill set as people in other European countries to go and work there.

Your average person who has a typical job could - if they wanted to - go and work in Europe. They would find it much harder to work outside Europe if they didn't have in demand skills.

Now it will be much harder for that person to work in Europe.

Just like your typical European will find it much much harder to work in the UK. They will need the skills that are needed to work here rather than just 'getting on a bus and turning up'.

We will still need migrants though. And we will still need investment in infrastructure and public services to manage this level of migration.

My mind boggles at one person having this number of friends who have all moved outside the EU. And we thought migration was all one way.

Why does the mind boggle?
What on earth are you on about?

My mind boggles at one person having this number of friends who have all moved outside the EU. And we thought migration was all one way

325,000 people migrated from the UK last year.

650,000 people migrated to the UK.

It's not one way.

People have always emigrated. But without knowing the details of their situation it's hard to say whether it was hard or easy, or why.

Some may simply be dual nationals; I have a friend who moved to the US with her dual national husband and children. It was reasonably simple in the sense that they were allowed in; OTOH it took her ages (and a lot of grey hairs) to get the right to work.

My cousins are in Oz; both are in skill shortage areas (architect and civil engineer respectively) and are now Australian nationals. However, their brother and mother have not been able to join them.

A close friend, an Australian who lived in France for many years and had a french husband and two French kids before returning to Oz with her children, was recently refused a visa that would have allowed her to return to France for a year.

I have many US friends in France and for them there are many hoops to jump through even when they are sponsored by an employer; unless we get our citizenship through in time I'm confidently expecting to have the same experience myself in a couple of years' time.

My (white) South African friend, a senior government employee, has great difficulty travelling on non-official business - she can effectively no longer holiday in the UK (Schenghen visas are easier to get by all accounts) - let alone come for longer.

Permit me to doubt that it's as easy as some brexiters would like you to believe, especially if they are curiously reluctant to provide any specifics.