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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

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squoosh · 04/12/2016 17:58

Nuttall sounds nutty. As is to be expected from a UKIP leader. Imagine falsely claiming to have a PhD and to have been a professional football player. Confused Grin

Ah well, at least it's in keeping with this post-truth world we're living in.

missmoon · 04/12/2016 18:01

Great news from Austria. Is the tide finally turning? Maybe people have woken up to the consequences of voting for these populists. Also, something that is interesting / peculiar about Austria is that it is very difficult to acquire citizenship. I seem to remember that for Vienna, about 30% of the voting-age population are not allowed to vote. These are 1st and 2nd generation immigrants. The result is that a large proportion of the population are disenfranchised, which is unsustainable in the long run.

TheNorthRemembers · 04/12/2016 18:39

These Nuttall lies worry me, because they remind me of the article we read here about how rational people try to counter post-truth with reason and how it backfires with voters at the minute. Kippers will just think we are all elitist and that we look down on him because he is a Northener (not because he is a fantasist).

Peregrina · 04/12/2016 18:44

I would have thought that Labour still had a bit of slack in Leigh, so I would be surprised if their candidate didn't get in, albeit with a reduced majority.

SwedishEdith · 04/12/2016 19:06

"Kippers will just think we are all elitist and that we look down on him because he is a Northener (not because he is a fantasist)."

But lots of us are northeners as well. Some of us grew up a few miles from him and even did our A levels at the same college (if he did actually do any, of course Grin ) . The BigBadBootleMeff hashtag thing came from a comment in the Liverpool Echo. I assume Ukip would need Sun backing to attack Labour - so he's got a bit of a problem there in Liverpool. Don't know how that'd pan out in Leigh though? He lacks charm. Horrid as Farage is, his success has been because he's got that.

squoosh · 04/12/2016 19:26

Anton Mahdalik, a Freedom Party member of the Vienna city council, called the result “a great success even though we lost.”.......

Mr Mahdalik singled out Nigel Farage, the former Ukip leader, for contributing to the party’s defeat after he said on Fox News on Friday that Mr Hofer would hold a referendum on Austria leaving the European Union.

“That didn’t help us, it hindered us,” he said, saying that an overwhelming majority of Austrians support EU membership.

Casting his vote in his home town of Pinkafeld earlier on Sunday, Mr Hofer ruled out a referendum and said: “I would ask Mr Farage not to interfere in Austria’s internal affairs.”

Well done Nigel for increasing pro EU feelings in Austria. Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 04/12/2016 19:27

Nuttal said (before becoming leader) " the very existence of the NHS stifles competition”

Those aren't the words of someone pondering how to fund the nhs in future - as he now claims.
Not someone who cares about the workers, the JAMs, the left behind.

Those are the words of the hard right free marketeers, who would gleefully watch the left behind diminishing in their rear view mirror.

I wonder if Nuttall has genuinely changed his politics from hard right, or if he is just pretending, in order to scoop up Labour votes.

A distopia where the government alternates between the Conservative Party and a much further rightwing party sounds the wet dream of the "elite," not one where ordinary working people have "taken back control" from them.

Castelnaumansions · 04/12/2016 19:40

"I would ask Mr Farage not to interfere in Austria’s internal affairs.”
The only people these types hate more than liberals are each other. Grin
Check out Palin now, the ukips bump each other on the heads etc.

lalalonglegs · 04/12/2016 19:44

Thankfully Nuttall is still saying that he wants to privatise the NHS albeit not straightaway and I can't see a man with those beliefs winning many votes in Leigh (or anywhere else in the UK). Even the most swivel-eyed of the Tories publicly pretend that they are only in favour of improving NHS efficiency etc, not getting rid of it entirely.

TuckersBadLuck · 04/12/2016 19:48

I just visited Nuttalls of UKIPS webpage to see what he said about Tranmere etc. Nothing incriminating about Tranmere or degrees there, but the 'About Paul' page repeats that old UKIP lie "We pay £50 million a day to an institution whose accounts haven’t been signed off for more than 14 years."

Ironic considering that the bit which hasn't been 'signed off' would be an agreement that mistaken, false, wrongly applied and fraudulent payments were valid. That would presumably include the £500k of EU money that UKIP are alleged to have wrongly used campaigning for Brexit...

Peregrina · 04/12/2016 19:50

Mr Mahdalik singled out Nigel Farage, the former Ukip leader, for contributing to the party’s defeat

I had to laugh at this.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/12/2016 20:00

That's interesting, Squoosh Farage wore out his welcome there quite quickly.
I wonder if Trump will send him packing too, hopefully not back to the UK for yet another incarnation as UKIP Control.

I've only visited Austria for a few meetings.
However, I've lived & worked in various other EU countries over the years and I've never heard significant opposition to the EU itself, or to EU free movement, even from the right.
Noone seems worried about losing sovereignty, or about invasion by Polish plumbers either.
Significantly, the much lower social inequality - compared to the UK & USA - hasn't created such a high % of JAMs, desperate to grab any lifebelt (which is really a shark in disguise)

What increases votes for the far right in some countries is one very specific issue: MENA immigration, which hasn't always worked out well.
Also, the far right is able to gain votes in some Eastern European countries because the long decades under USSR control isolated them from the progress in social attitudes that Western Europe enjoyed.
e.g. there is still a difference in attitudes between those who grew up in the former East Germany and those in the West.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/12/2016 20:04

Signing off accounts

The head of the UK National Audit Office is on record as saying that if he had to clear the UK's accounts as the European Court of Auditors does, he wouldn't give them a clean bill of health either

The EU accounts have higher sign off standards than the UK government sign off standards:
If there are auditor's comments on a single department, the whole EU budget is not approved as audit compliant.
Not so in the UK where the DWP accounts have had similar auditor's reservations for the last 4 years.
If EU standards were applied, that would mean the UK government accounts were not approved for the last 4 years.

lalalonglegs · 04/12/2016 20:07

There is an interview with Gina Miller about the Supreme Court judges being vilified. It goes on to discuss the case more generally and the writer states:

It is understood ministers felt the first hearings had been framed too much by the claimants going first, but the order will be reversed in the appeal, giving the government the opportunity to shape its case in a different way while making essentially the same arguments.

Straw clutching much? It's not a flaming tennis match Hmm

Mistigri · 04/12/2016 20:18

I would ask Mr Farage not to interfere in Austria's internal affairs

The entire mistifamily had a chuckle over that one.

Re Nuttal, not sure that UKIP will survive his leadership. Too many skeletons, and he simply doesn't have Farage's personal appeal. Might go and Google what the odds are on him resigning before Christmas.

Melassa · 04/12/2016 20:21

Re far right loss in Austria, I do wonder if Trump's election victory has put a lot of Europeans off the Far Right. Trump and his team embody the epitome of bigotry, hatred and blatant apartheid (race, anyone who poor, needy etc.) that many Europeans with their years of equality, welfare state and socialised medicine don't have the stomach for. We used to gasp with horror and some amusement at the Tea Party policies, but these go way beyond. This is too drastic a shift for Europe as a whole and may have made a lot of people squeamish about voting for Hofer, Le Pen et al.

I had to laugh at the Austrian Freedom party blaming Farage! What a prat!

HyacinthFuckit · 04/12/2016 20:22

Snort. Nige helping lose the election for an Austrian nationalist scrote. It's been a good week.

TuckersBadLuck · 04/12/2016 20:23

The EU accounts themselves contain a clear statement that they've been 'signed off' every year since (from memory) 2007. It's not that the accuracy of the accounts is in doubt, just that there's an unacceptable (according to the rules) level of 'wrongful' payments. That can mean anything from contracts awarded without proper procedure being followed to funding for an airport in an area which it turns out had no need for an airport. From what I can remember, and once repayments are taken into account, we're talking about ~2% of EU expenditure. It's mostly down to money individual governments distribute on behalf of the EU and it's roughly in line with what most governments, and government departments, expect to 'wrongfully' pay out. Think housing benefit, farming payments and tax credits - there's always some 'wrongful' payments they don't bother recovering.

HPFA · 04/12/2016 20:50

Meanwhile the Daily Mail finds a new low:

www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html

It can only be a matter of time before it declares ALL Remainers to be Enemies of the People

lalalonglegs · 04/12/2016 20:53

Did I read that headline right? Is the Daily Mail disappointed that the Nazi candidate didn't win in Austria? Shock

StripeyMonkey1 · 04/12/2016 20:55

I agree that Nutall is unlikely to win over many Labour voters given his views on the NHS.

However, Isn't Aaron Banks planning to fund an entirely new party in certain constituencies to continue the alt right revolution? I reckon the far right will have a new and different voice from UKIP in 2020. The progressives, be they Tory, Libdem or Labour, will need to be ready to fight them.

squoosh · 04/12/2016 20:57

The tumour that is Arron Banks responded to Hofer's defeat by tweeting 'You can't always get it right - I suppose they haven't suffered enough rape and murder yet.'

merrymouse · 04/12/2016 20:58

That DM headline is nuts.

I don't understand how it is helpful to align Brexit with Nazis. Never mind the 48%, do they really think that will go down well with most of the 52%?

merrymouse · 04/12/2016 20:59

Although at the moment it looks like the Nazis don't want to be associated with Brexit.

NotDavidTennant · 04/12/2016 21:02

I suspect Nuttall is just keeping the seat warm until Farage is ready to come back again.

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