Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
BestIsWest · 30/11/2016 12:14

Thanks Red. I don't know why I'm torturing myself with these threads. I feel I want to stick my fingers in my ears and go lalala in the hope it will all go away.

But in the meantime, thanks Grin

MakemineaGandT · 30/11/2016 13:26

Red, you are a genius - perfect summary of the current state of fucked-up-ness.

I wake up in the morning and try to blot it out - thinking I need a break from the Brexit madness - but it's everywhere and all-consuming, and what intelligent person can just put it out if their mind? I am so grateful to you for your work here pulling all the issues together - it really does help.

Are you on Twitter by the way?

SapphireStrange · 30/11/2016 13:33

From the previous thread, Brushed, I think, said

Those who have misgiving about the poor and needy being supported, may you never find yourself in that position

This is ABSOLUTELY the heart of the sorry mess we're in and the way I feel (despairing) about our country at the moment.

I believe more strongly than anything else in

  • there but for the grace of God (NB figuratively speaking; I'm an agnostic)
  • from each to each (NB yes I do know where that comes from; no I'm not a Red Grin
  • a society should be judged on how it treats its weakest members

These threads, although they make me grind my teeth and tear my hair, are also a source of comfort and a sense that there are at least some good and reasonable, not to mention well-informed, people about.

Thank you, Red, for your continued efforts.

TheNorthRemembers · 30/11/2016 13:36

Same here. Thanks Red.

lalalonglegs · 30/11/2016 13:50

Thanks, Red - with the next five days including a by-election, a general election, a referendum and the start of the Supreme Court appeal, I think this one's going to fill up pretty quickly.

jaws5 · 30/11/2016 14:04

Thanks Red for another thread.
The situation with forthcoming developments in Europe is terrifying and potentially extremely dangerous. Just this morning I listened to a very respected Spanish journalist bringing together Brexit and the rise of the extreme right in Europe. The next Italian referendum, Austrian, Dutch and French elections could open the door to a new fascism (let's start calling things by their name). It is disingenuous to pretend that Brexit is not part of this, and the election of Paul Nuttel is an obvious example of the kind of extreme right wing rhetoric that appeals to many on the grounds of "plain speaking", "common sense", "we've had enough of political correctness". Here is the video blog in Spanish, but his conclusion is that the era of liberal values that have defined the period of peace and tolerance since the end of WW2 could be over.
blogs.elpais.com/la-voz-de-inaki/2016/11/en-el-filo-de-la-navaja.html

Unicornsarelovely · 30/11/2016 14:06

Thank you Red and I completely agree Sapphire.

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 14:32

The EU referendum expense deadline is looming. (23rd December)

And look what we have here:
www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/vote-leave-the-canadian-it-company-and-the-ps725000-donation?utm_term=.xdqoDEApa#.hwgZVMwL3
Vote Leave, The Canadian IT Company, And The £725,000 Donations

It was said back in July that there might be smoking gun email by Jo Maugham that suggested that there was dubious action along these lines going on.

Expect this story to develop and perhaps similar things to appear (which might include Remain doing the same but the email which raised concerns was a vote leave one).

Odds lengthening on Goldsmith he's now 1/3. (drop from 76% chance of winning to 65%)

OP posts:
libertydoddle · 30/11/2016 14:58

Thanks Red. It would cheer me right up if Goldsmith loses Richmond.

lurkinghusband · 30/11/2016 15:27

.

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 15:38

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
So @PeterBoneMP has presented his Bill mandating Article 50 by end March - government policy.. here it is:

A Bill to require Her Majesty's Government to notify the European Council by 31st March 2017 of the United Kingdom's intention to withdraw from the European Union.

1) Notification of the United Kingdom's intention to withdraw from the European Union
(1) Her Majesty's Government has a duty to notify the European Council by 31st March 2017 of the United Kingdom's intention to withdraw from the European Union.
(2) The notification must meet the terms of Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union

2) Short title commencement and extent
(3) This Act may be cited as the Withdrawal from the European Union (Article 50) Act 2017
(4) The Act shall come into force on the day on which it receives Royal Assent
(5) This Act extends to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland

Can't see that being its final form. Its crap. It has plenty of room for amendment by the Lords.

Not to mention it falls down a big hole if the Supreme Court throw any number of extra spanners in the works, especially with relation to devolution. Its interesting to note that all four parts of the union are mentioned explicitly. (though no mention of Gibraltar).
I do note today is St Andrew's day though.

I also don't see how they will enforce sticking to the deadline if the Lords do decide to be difficult.

Interesting to note that Brexiteers who said they didn't need to go through parliament and could use the Royal Prerogative are presenting a bill at all.... It represents a shift in opinion, doesn't it?

Just think if the government had decided to do it this way from the word go, they might not be getting into such a legal pickle.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 30/11/2016 16:12

Thanks for the new thread!

Sorry to sound stupid, but if the bill passes and the government don't meet the 31st March deadline, what are the consequences?

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 16:18

www.joe.ie/news/uk-considering-moving-their-border-to-include-republic-of-ireland-says-arlene-foster/569065

Arlene Foster says the UK is considering moving its border to include the Republic, as a way to 'protect the two islands against terrorism.'

Northern Ireland's First Minister was keen to stress that the government in the Republic were not yet in negotiations, but were merely discussing it with their British and Northern Ireland counterparts.

I see no problem with this....

Ooo a nice twitter storm brews.
Julia Hartley-Brewer ‏@JuliaHB1 (Radio presenter for Talk Radio. Also journalist for other media - cites telegraph, skynews, independent and bbc)
Merkel is happy to welcome 1mill Syrians to Germany but not to guarantee Britons a life there. I think that tells us all we need to know.

Yes it certainly does...

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
Look, Brexit shouldn't really mean Brexit.

Brexit supporters complaining that EU-based rights of UK citizens in other EU member states will be extinguished is, well, remarkable.

UK citizens losing their EU-based rights is the essence of Brexit.

Any person supporting Brexit should have realised this.

Julia Hartley-Brewer ‏@JuliaHB1
@Lawandpolicy we'd lose our right to live/work in the EU.But that's not the same as those already living in EU nations losing their rights

GOsborneGenius ‏@GOsborneGenius
@JuliaHB1 @Lawandpolicy You don't seem to understand what you voted for Julia.

Neil Fawcett ‏@neilefawcett
@Lawandpolicy They we're relying on Johnson's Law (Conservation of Cake) and feel let down now it is shown to be false.

Law and policy ‏@Lawandpolicy
If those rights are based on EU law then, of course, that is what Brexit would mean.

Brexit could not mean otherwise.

Julie is a 'journalist'. Its HER JOB to find shit out. Julie obviously as a journalist, well educated.

To put it rather politely, journalism perhaps really isn't her forte after all and giving herself the title might really be stretching the definition.

Instead, perhaps Julie should refer to herself as a 'columnist' or 'writer' but not a journalist.

Here's a nice journalist explaining why May might have be wise to look after EU nationals here rather than saying they were bargaining chips leading to Merkel just doing the same in return:

www.ft.com/content/41657538-b6f8-11e6-ba85-95d1533d9a62
Brexit Briefing: Theresa May’s errors on expats
It may have been wiser if PM guaranteed EU nationals’ rights to live in UK from start

Fraser Nelson of the Spectator says he has been told that Mrs May was“surprised — stunned, even”when the German chancellor flatly rejected the idea of an early pact at her recent meeting with the British prime minister inBerlin. “The prime minister needed some time to compose herself after that rejection,” he wrote.

Some may feel the Europeans are being unusually harsh to the British, given this is an issue that affects millions of their own nationals. But the question that continues to dog Mrs May is whether she would have been wiser to make a unilateral gesture right at the start of her premiership that all EU nationals living in theUKbefore June 23 — the date of the referendum — would have their rights guaranteed.

and

Ms Merkel’s rebuff to Mrs May over a deal on EU nationals should serve as a wake-up call to Downing Street. AsPaul Taylor writes in Politico, the Germans believe thatcutting a quick deal on citizens’ rights “might have perpetuated illusions inLondonthat this is a negotiation among equals”. It is in fact a lopsided situation in whichBritainis dependent on the goodwill of all 27 former EU partners.In Number 10, this reality may slowly be sinking in.

I hope Julia (or indeed anyone who agrees with Julia) reads it, and learns something.

Afterall in October Mr Fox said this:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/04/liam-fox-refuses-to-guarantee-right-of-eu-citizens-to-remain-in-uk

Fox, who was speaking at a fringe event, said the government would “like to be able to give a reassurance to EU nationals in the UK, but that depends on reciprocation by other countries”.

He said any other strategy “would be to hand over one of our main cards in the negotiations and doesn’t necessarily make sense at this point”.

Hinting that a scenario could emerge where EU nationals currently in the UK were not given automatic leave to remain, Fox said: “If we do [negotiations] from the premise that the EU ‘ever closer union’ project is more important than the people, and those who go against it must be punished, we will not get such a good outcome.

“That’s what the skill of our government will be tested on, if we can get the former, and not lead Europe into the latter.”

This was the moment the UK government sold its own nationals downstream, by threatening German citizens.

It makes you wonder, if Julia and 'journalists' like her had done her job in the first place and FOUND SHIT OUT and then presented this to the public accurately, whether our media would be like it is.

This type of thing just makes me angry tbh, as there is no excuse for it, when you comment and talk about politics for a living. (Unlike some of us ordinary folk).

Btw I am on twitter, but I never post. I look like a sleeper bot account but I'm very real.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 16:20

Sorry to sound stupid, but if the bill passes and the government don't meet the 31st March deadline, what are the consequences?

You don't sound stupid. The one who came up with the deadline is the stupid one. As is the one who has written it into his proposed bill.

The consequences? Theresa May gets to look like a dickhead to her party, country and the EU, Brexiteers get very angry and UKIP have a field day. The Lib Dems and SNP get to gloat rather a lot.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 30/11/2016 16:23

Julie is a 'journalist'. Its HER JOB to find shit out. Julie obviously as a journalist, well educated.

The scary thing is that she is certainly far, far more informed than many Brexiteers.

Motheroffourdragons · 30/11/2016 16:29

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 30/11/2016 16:33

What did Julie reply next?

She has always been staggeringly ill- informed/desperate to court controversy.

Great summary of the situation, btw red.

lurkinghusband · 30/11/2016 16:35

GOsborneGenius ‏@GOsborneGenius
@JuliaHB1 @Lawandpolicy You don't seem to understand what you voted for Julia.

It says something about the Wonderland nature of Brexit that I could feel vaguely well-disposed to GO.

At what point will the Brexiters realise they've been had ?

lurkinghusband · 30/11/2016 16:37

Whenever I have seen JHB on TV, something Billy Connolly once said about weather presenters echoes in my mind ... I won't repeat it, as it is offensive (if true), but he notes that people who watch weather forecasts don't do so because they want to know what the weather will do ...

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 16:59

If the public are indeed ignorant about what Brexit really means, then is it because they are stupid, or is it because supposedly intelligent 'journalists' like Julia have failed in their duty and responsibility to them?

www.ft.com/content/36e5b0e9-baa4-30eb-adc9-dd2babcf2d80
Who the UK really is negotiating with over Brexit
David Allen Green

No, her true Brexit opponents are the UK’s media and politicians and, by extension, the public. Mrs May and her government are in an intense negotiation to obtain approval from those to whom they are, in theory, accountable. This is the settlement which matters most. The actual exit terms with the EU are of secondary importance.

and

There is a flow of information about Brexit but it is not coming from the government. We do not need to analyse handwritten notes of political aides or memoranda of consultancy firms to know the UK’s Brexit objectives and the lack of a practical plan to achieve them. The UK’s counterparts at the EU will tell us. There is a helpful and detailed running commentary: it is just not coming from Westminster.

Ministers know that “making a success of Brexit” is a domestic political objective. And so the lack of communication serves as a way of dealing with two problems. The first issue is the available outcomes and structuring expectations: how certain fairly predicable and realistic areas of potential agreement with the EU, both in the exit agreement and the trade agreement, can be conveyed to those who will be sceptical of or hostile to anything other than an illusory “taking back of control”. In essence: how is any deal going to be sold?

The second problem is about lack of method and thought: how to cloak the government’s ongoing inability to form a settled view on which of the available outcomes is preferable. Westminster is aware of what is possible but various and contradictory ministerial statements (often then disowned by Downing Street) indicate that ministers do not have a clue about what to do. In essence: how can the government look like it knows what it is doing. when it does not?

and finally

Mrs May and her ministers should stop regarding the domestic media and politicians as opponents to whom there should be little or no disclosure. The game of cards should come to an end. The only way Brexit can be successful is if the game-playing ceases and the problem-solving begins.

OP posts:
TheBathroomSink · 30/11/2016 16:59

Excellent summary (again) Red

JHB is Katie Hopkins with a (very very thin) veneer of civility

MissMarplesHat · 30/11/2016 17:12

Thanks for the new thread Red Wine

lurkinghusband · 30/11/2016 17:15

Sending immigrants back, one by one Hmm

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-37777729

A question mark hangs over a world-leading laboratory that has pioneered research into fusion for nearly 40 years.
The Culham Centre for Fusion Energy near Oxford is largely funded by the EU and dozens of its scientists come from outside the UK.
Since the vote for Brexit, many at the centre have become "extremely nervous" amid uncertainty about future financing and freedom of movement.
Five researchers have already returned to continental Europe with others said to be considering their positions.

(contd)

lalalonglegs · 30/11/2016 17:52

To be fair to Julia HB, much as I loathe her point of view, she was a political journalist for many, many years (mostly with the Express, iirc) and would have spent much of her time at Westminster, milking contacts and working out which way the wind blew. She is now a paid rent-a-gob and I can't believe for a moment it never crossed her mind that UK "expats" (not migrants as someone pointed out on the other thread) might not be as welcome in Europe as they once were. This is her being provokingly disingenuous, in a tweet calculated to make Brexiteers feel ever more hard done by.

merrymouse · 30/11/2016 17:55

The tweet is certainly designed to appeal to a certain sort of person, particularly given the current suffering of Syrians in Aleppo.