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Brexit

Westministenders. For God sake Boris, is that the best plan you can come up with?

967 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:25

Its now five months from the referendum. Plans for leaving should be well advanced by now. Shouldn't they? We should have got past this ridiculous idea that we can have our cake and eat it. Yet the plan is a secret, well apart from when the EU leak things to the press or junior ministers let their underlings carry their notes for them.

A photo taken this week outside Downing Street, suggests that the ‘Have Cake And Eat It’ Plan really is seriously being considered by the government. This plan is 'clear' it has been spelt out many times by the government and yet no one has a fucking clue what it is apart from a car crash of utter nonsense, wishful thinking and fingers in the ears. Its so clear that Theresa May has admitted she is losing sleep over it, and has faith that God will steer us through via her moral compass (which I suspect to have been left on top of a rather large electro-magnet given her track record so far)

Still this, however, seems to be better than the ‘Fuck You’ Plan (or should that be 'Fuck EU') that is official UKIP policy and is to ignore a50 and leave the EU unilaterally. And possibly illegally, so no one will ever want to make an international agreement with the UK.

And this, is still at least better than ‘We Have No’ Plan that Labour have.

Other suggested plans are:
The ‘Lets Leave the UK and Screw Ourselves Another Way’ Plan as supported by the SNP which the majority of Scots seem to be against
The Welsh are quietly cultivating the ‘Shh Nobody Mention We Voted Leave But Are Now Going to be Difficult’ Plan as they suddenly realise they are about to be shafted financially and might lose the Welsh Assembly in the process.
NI might still go down the ‘Lets Unify Ireland and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan though, the alternative might well be the ‘Lets Stay in the Union and Start Another Chapter in Violence’ Plan anyway, so they are screwed due to the immense thoughtfulness of the English.
Meanwhile the Lib Dems are all about the ‘Lets Just Not Do This and Instead Risk a Revolt’ Plan.

If anyone does actually have a coherent plan, then there are lots of parties who would love to hear from you.

Lets be honest about the secrecy though. Its not about the EU knowing our plans. They already know what all our options are, or more to the point, aren't. The government want to keep it out of parliament because they want to control it, and because they don't want the press to know. They do not want transparency, as they are so weak and so fearful that they will be shown up for what they are, even when there is no opposition.

So we are screwed. Unless somehow someone comes to their senses and puts it to the EU that a50 isn’t fit for purpose and that a new treaty must be done to respect the democratic will of the people and the EU let us go down that route (Hey didn’t I say that months ago?).

Tomorrow we have the completely pointless and costly vanity by-election for Zac Goldsmith. The referendum about Heathrow and not at all about Brexit. Latest betting 2/7 on Goldsmith and 5/2 on the Lib Dems. I think Goldsmith with his good looks will just sneak it, unless turnout is really low. But it will be close.

Sunday we have the Italian Referendum, which some have suggested would the Italian Bank Melt Down (and start of a new Eurozone Crisis) though many here say this fear is massively over stated through Brexit tinted spectacles. Sunday also sees the Austria Presidential Election Re-run with the Far Right Candidate currently looking like he has the slight edge.

A50. The Supreme Court case starts next week. Scotland say they have a veto. Wales say they are worried about the Devolution Problem. NI still might have their defeat in the High Court overturned and there is the Good Friday agreement. The Supreme Court might insist that the Great Repeal Act might need to be passed before we can invoke a50. And the plan if the government lose is merely a 3 line Bill which they want to rush through in 5 days no one would dare defy. Well except the Lib Dems are already saying they want amendments to ensure parliamentary scrutiny and what is the point of the Lords if they don't. So there is a fair old chance that if the government loses given the wider scope of the Supreme Court Case, a 3 line bill simply won’t cover everything it needs to.

We still don’t know if the ECJ might get involved. It seems the Republic of Ireland, might have a say in that too. An ECJ referral would mean a 4 to 8 month delay, even with the sensitivity and the importance of the case.

Don’t forget if you were planning on going/worried about it the 100,000 March on the Supreme Court is off. Due to not being planned in the first place although Leave.Eu will tell you different.

Speaking of the Great Repeal Act. This is supposed to be started in May. This would give it less than two years to be ready before we left the EU. Yet it has a load of hurdles to leap in its sheer complexity, and there is a real danger this will not be long enough. If not done correctly it has the potential to mean the legal system would “fall over”. This is basically the legal equivalent of when you mean yourself in a time travelling sci-fi creating a paradox which threatens the very existence of time itself.

A127. Another treaty, another challenge? Possibly, but maybe only a way to bargain for the EEA rather than something more. But it just shows the legal headache Brexit is. We still could end up in the ECJ on any number of other issues – not just a50. You know this legal headache the government is ignoring by having no lawyer in the Brexit Cabinet, and UKIP are just plan delusional about.

Anyway UKIP have a new leader. Paul Nuttalls. (sic – see Stuart Lee). He wants to privatise the NHS though he denies having said it either on camera or on his blog. Everytime anyone says ‘Paul Nuttalls to you, remember to say ‘Oh the one who wants to privatise the NHS?’ Just to make sure everyone is away that he wants to privatise the NHS. Repeat Ad nauseam. Hell this is what Labour are going to be doing, as they are bloody terrified. Why? Simple. He will, of course, be hugely popular despite this cos he’s got the right accent and says the ‘right things’. By ‘right things’ I mean cos he spouts utter bollocks. Which probably means he’s also electable seeing as utter bollocks is now political currency. Plus Labour are rather lacking in any policies, so utter bollocks policies easily fill the void.

Talking of utter bollocks, I haven’t mentioned Trump yet. The Greens have requested a recount and are supported by the Democrats, though they say they haven’t found anything dubious themselves yet. Trump says it’s a scam. Goebbels once said when telling the Big Lie accuse your opposition of what you are guilty of yourself, so I'm not betting either way given that is the political strategy Trump has employed with gusto. I dread to think of the mess that would cause if the recount came out in favour of Clinton.

So another couple of fun weeks on the cards, which will have you reaching for the gin and wondering if there is anyone left alive who actually gives a toss about what happens to real people and isn’t prepared to commit economic and democratic suicide.

Only another month to go before the 2016 Repeal Act comes into force. 2017 looks smashing.
Shamelessly stolen from David Allen Green

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merrymouse · 08/12/2016 22:45

ISIS in its incarnation in Syria and Iraq is not 'terrorism'. It is an armed force occupying large areas of both countries, occupying cities, imposing rule by means of well organised thugs on the ground, using prisons, operating infrastructure (power plants, etc) and selling oil. It is a rule of terror but it is not terrorism as in bombing the Underground or killing people in a theatre.

The reason America and Russia are concerned about ISIS is its links to domestic uprisings and terrorism in their own countries. Get rid of ISIS and watch something else spring up in its place. Bombing ISIS does not end the conditions that led to the civil war in the first place.

That war was not really won. It was started but not finished, despite the US pulling out its forces with great fanfare.

And again, why do you think a better job would be done in Syria? Who do you think would be responsible for keeping an eye on Assad? Iran? Russia?

I think you are over simplifying a problem that defies simplification.

Kaija · 08/12/2016 22:52

Is anyone else braving the Question Time horror show?

RedToothBrush · 08/12/2016 22:56

This is rare beast at the moment. Council By-Election:

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects
Labour GAIN Horsehay & Lightmoor (Telford & Wrekin) from Conservative.

The result itself is even more interesting...

Horsehay & Lightmoor (Telford & Wrekin) result:
LAB: 45.9% (+20.5)
CON: 38.2% (-3.8)
UKIP: 15.9% (-1.6)
LDem and Grn didn't stand this time.

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RedToothBrush · 08/12/2016 22:57

We are going to, but still on Newsnight. DH says I'm not allowed to watch the whole of Question Time in case I put the remote through the tv.

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Peregrina · 08/12/2016 22:58

I could imagine that Russia is concerned about ISIS being ringed by Muslim former Soviet Republics. I can't see how that translates to the situation in the USA.

To me, the USA's interference just seems like a proxy war against the Russians. If you think back, the Americans were very high and mighty about Russian intervention in Afghanistan, until they interferred themselves, supposedly looking for Bin Laden, and the Russian intervention was conveniently forgotten.

SwedishEdith · 08/12/2016 23:00

No to QT tonight. Just no. Farage and Mensch have nothing to say that needs to be heard.

RedToothBrush · 08/12/2016 23:06

Sarah Wollaston's face says what words do not.

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Kaija · 08/12/2016 23:14

Yes Farage and Mensch excruciatingly awful. But Will Self...

Kaija · 08/12/2016 23:15

Sarah Wollaston surely has to defect to Lib Dems soon? How can she stand it?

HesterThrale · 08/12/2016 23:20

Exactly Kaija. A Tory speaking up for social care and the NHS. And even tax increases to fund the NHS. Why does she stay there?

RedToothBrush · 08/12/2016 23:32

Wollaston is in a constituency that is potentially a Con / Lib Dem marginal (was in 2010).

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects
Sleaford & North Hykeham turnout estimated to be at 37%: around 32,000 votes cast.

Reminder of the result in 2015:
Conservative 34,805 56.2%
Labour 10,690 17.3%
UKIP 9,716 15.7%
Liberal Democrat 3,500 5.7%
Lincolnshire Independent 3,233 5.2%

ANYTHING could happen. I guess its down to who got the vote out and who is most motivated to vote there.

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RedToothBrush · 08/12/2016 23:49

Have to say QT was not as painful to watch as some have been of late.

Surprisingly civil - mainly down to the audience being reasonable even if leavers who I disagree with completely.

Farage was Farage but I've seen him much more unpleasant.

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RedToothBrush · 08/12/2016 23:59

Daniel Hewitt @DanielHewittITV
NEW: The Conservatives say they're "confident" they'll hold Sleaford and North Hykeham. UKIP are quiet.
Looks like Labour will come 4th in Sleaford & North Hykeham. Came 2nd in 2015. Asked if they'll keep their deposit, source said 'hopefully'.

Ouch.

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RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:05

New thread up, as I suspect this one will fill up quickly when the by-election result comes up later tonight.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2799945-Westministenders-Boris-we-wish-you-a-Merry-Christmas-and-a-Happy-Constitutional-Crisis?watched=1

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Peregrina · 09/12/2016 00:07

It would be astonishing if the Tories didn't hold Sleaford and North Hykeham. The turnout seems low - lower than the other two recent by elections, so I wonder if Tories have been staying at home? Hmm, just have to wait and see.

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:09

Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE
Lib Dems doing better than expected in Sleaford by-election apparently

Coming second above UKIP would be one in the eye.

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mathanxiety · 09/12/2016 00:11

Peregrina, I think that is very true.

Merrymouse:
The reason America and Russia are concerned about ISIS is its links to domestic uprisings and terrorism in their own countries. Get rid of ISIS and watch something else spring up in its place. Bombing ISIS does not end the conditions that led to the civil war in the first place.
The reason both are concerned about ISIS being a territorial force to be reckoned with is Israel. ISIS has sworn to wipe Israel off the map and Israel has nuclear weapons. So it behoves other states to get rid of ISIS and then whatever comes after it, or to get rid of ISIS and then think very seriously about maintaining the peace and the price that must be paid for that. No more grandstanding about withdrawing troops, etc.

You do not want to accept that conditions for civil war are one thing but actual civil war and conditions for involvement of foreign fanatical mercenaries two other things entirely.

ISIS did not spring up from conditions in Syria. ISIS sprang up from the philosophy of jihad, which is as old as Islam. The opportunity for jihad presented itself in the power vacuum and the chaos left in the wake of the US and UK attack of Iraq and in the wake of the US encouragement of rebels within Syria.

If the US had kept its nose out of Syria it is highly unlikely any destabilisation would have occurred because the anti-Assad forces would not have been emboldened to fight. Syria was and is a victim of US hubris in the wake of started and unfinished revolutions and regime changes in Iraq, Libya, Egypt and Ukraine.

And again, why do you think a better job would be done in Syria? Who do you think would be responsible for keeping an eye on Assad? Iran? Russia?
Russia unlike the US is willing to finish the war, and this is because Russia's borders are far closer to Syria and Iraq than America's are. Also because Russia along with everyone else does not want Israel to get twitchy with that nuclear option. Assad will owe Russia considerably if he remains in power after the dust settles. The US picked the wrong dog in this fight.

RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:13

Daniel Hewitt ‏@DanielHewittITV
Early days but the Tories look increasingly like they've held Sleaford & North Hykeham. Question now is how comfortably? Doesn't seem close.

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RedToothBrush · 09/12/2016 00:30

Who booked Pete Doherty for Andrew Neil?! Concentrate on the question carefully...

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BigChocFrenzy · 09/12/2016 00:32

OK, now let's see hwomgood the various predictions were, as polls close:

http://news.sky.com/story/ukip-hopes-for-brexit-wake-up-call-in-sleaford-by-election-10688562

UKIP hoping for a historic win. Reports say this is a slight possibility, but more realistically a good 2nd.
That would be progress for them, after coming 3rd in the GE

Labour may drop from 2nd to 4th place and lose a 2nd deposit in a row:
"One senior party figure told Sky News: "The Leavers see us as backsliders on Brexit; the Remainers say we're sell-outs and should be trying harder. We're in a strategic vice."

BigChocFrenzy · 09/12/2016 00:41

UKIP claiming they could win because "people are fed up with the Government's foot-dragging and don't trust them to deliver."

Liberals hope to pick up some Tory Remain votes - maybe Labour Remain too - and come 2nd

MangoMoon · 09/12/2016 00:49

RTB, watching Andrews Neil attempting to 'interview' Pete Doherty was cringe-making!
It was just so bizarre...
Especially Michael Portillo being dragged into it at the end!

merrymouse · 09/12/2016 07:06

Sleaford results:

Dr Caroline Johnson Conservatives 17,570
Victoria Ayling Ukip 4,426
Jim Clarke Labour 3,363
Ross Pepper Lib Dems 3,606
Mark Suffield Independent 74
Sarah Stock Independent 462
Marianne Overton Lincs Independents 2,892

UKIP spinning their result as second place despite being in the middle of a leadership campaign. To be fair, second place is pretty good when they couldn't spell the name of the constituency.

However, turn out wasn't high compared to 2015:

The Conservative Party 34805 56%
Labour 10690 17%
UKIP 9716 16%
Liberal Democrat 3500 6%
Lincolnshire Independents 5%

Lib Dems clearly aren't a force in Sleaford, but they beat Labour and actually increased the number of voters.

Compared to the main parties, Lincolnshire Independents did well.

merrymouse · 09/12/2016 07:06

oops!

2015 results:

The Conservative Party 34805 56%
Labour 10690 17%
UKIP 9716 16%
Liberal Democrat 3500 6%
Lincolnshire Independents 5%

Castelnaumansions · 09/12/2016 07:22

thanks for results