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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris has lost it. Time for that emergency budge--- er tax giveaway.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/11/2016 11:17

Bloody hell where are we up to?

Trump is preparing for the White House. He has refused to give up his assets which will be a conflict of interest and maybe lead to corruption. He has just settled a fraud case out of court. One of the cases of illegal sexual behaviour has collapsed after the claimant was too afraid to proceed. His VP believes in stopping all abortions by any means necessary and beliefs in gay conversion therapy. He has appointed a white supremacist as his chief strategist. His attorney general is regarded as amnesty’s biggest enemy opposing just about all human rights bills as a senator. He has also been dogged by accusations of racism. His national security advisor supports torture techniques such as water boarding. These three appointments have been greeted with delight from the former leader of the KKK.

Man of the people, Nigel Farage is trying to undermine Theresa May and sideline the government by cozying up to Trump in front of a couple of gold doors. His long term intentions look increasingly wider than purely being about the EU and ever more sinister in nature. He is in danger of doing a rather good Moseley impression.

Meanwhile rumours persist of voter suppression and dubious election practices in several key states, which are hugely undemocratic and Hillary Clinton wins the popular vote.

These are all things you are supposed to ignore, and are just expected to believe that everything is okay and that it’s the fault of liberals for standing up for discrimination and that this discrimination is none existent in the first place. Unless your Head of State is named Merkel.

But don’t worry, our Head of State is set to intervene though. The Queen is due to invite Trump to Windsor and is our secret weapon. Like Kate is our secret Brexit weapon. The cost of this intervention? A £396million refurb of Buck Pally. If she can pull that off, hell, let’s just send her to Brussels instead of Johnson. We might get some good will even if Philip drops a clanger about prosecco.

Back in the UK, the a50 saga drags on. The NI case now joins the ‘People’s Challenge’ at the Supreme Court, as well as new representation coming from both the Scottish Government and Welsh assembly. The government defence has changed, with one of the key changes has been to describe our rights under the EU as different by calling them “internationally established rights” and therefore different to domestic rights. They now say that they previously agreed with the claimant that a50 was irrevocable, their position is now that whether it is irrevocable or revocable is irrelevant to the strength of the case, effectively leaving it open for the devolved governments to pursue this line.

Previously it was assumed that this would require a referral to the ECJ. It is not necessarily the case. The situation is more complex as was outlined in a HoC Library Briefing. In this, it states a referral might be legal unavoidable as otherwise could be open to damages, might not be needed as the Supreme Court itself holds the power to decide whether a50 is reversible or not or that the Supreme Court does not have the authority to refer until after a50 has been triggered (which changes the dynamics of things).

Even then, it might prove to be legally possible but politically impossible to reverse, it might require a unanimous agreement to reverse by the other 27 which might enforce conditions in doing so.

Several senior Conservatives have called for the government to drop the appeal. Oliver Letwin, argues that it is might up the government up to being vetoed by the devolved assemblies, Dominic Grieve thinks its simply unlikely to win, and Edward Garnier has said it leaves “an opportunity for ill motivated people to attack the judiciary and misconstrue the motives of both parties to the lawsuit”.

One of the Supreme Court judges has been criticised for outlining the case to law students in a speech due to misreporting. In the speech she said that the referendum was not legally binding before going on to explain that an act of parliament to trigger a50 might not be enough and that the Great Repeal Act might have to be passed to replace the European Communities Act before we can notify the EU of our intent to leave if the defense case holds up before she went on to explain the government’s position. Another Supreme Court judge has been called to excuse himself after his wife made pro-EU tweets as obviously by nature of being married, is completely biased.

A former lord chief justice has now warned that Liz Truss has caused a “constitutional breakdown” and may have broken the law by failing to defend judges.

I’m putting money on the live video feed of the Supreme Court breaking due to ‘unprecedented demand’. This of course is a conspiracy.

At the same time a Three Line Bill for a50 is prepared to put to the HoC with the intention that the HoC and HoL would not ‘dare defy it’. Except the Lib Dem Lords are suggesting they see no reason why they shouldn’t table an amendment that ensures parliamentary scrutiny and have consulted a constitutional lawyer over the matter. The feeling is that, if they don’t do this, then what is the point of the HoL? At the same time, measures to restrict the powers of the HoL over statutory instruments have also been dropped. This seems to be a good thing given the timing, until you find out the apparent reason; they apparently will need these powers to enact the Great Repeal Act.

Elsewhere a who’s who of the right of the Tory Party – 60 MPs – back a call to leave the Single Market and the Customs Union, whilst Hammond regards himself as the last voice of sanity in the Cabinet over the realistic challenges of Brexit.

Hammond is to deliver his Autumn Statement this week, which looks set to include tax breaks to those earning over £43,000 which Shadow Chancellor McDonnell agrees with. McDonnell of course has been doing a lot of agreeing with the government lately. Austerity looks unlikely to end. The NHS seems likely to as well.

Work and Pensions Secretary, Damien Green has been wetting his pants at the exciting opportunity to expand the gig economy. The growth of which I think few will argue has been a hugely contributory factor to feelings that drove the Leave vote. More Tory MPs have rebelled on cuts to disability benefits calling them cruel.

Liz Truss has had a riot from prisoners and a revolt from the prison staff in addition to her problems

Amber Rudd has been forced to admit there are secret files on the miners’ strike and Orgreave clashes which she did not take into consideration whilst making the Orgreave decision. Is that the faint whiff of a cover up? She has also had the largest victims charity withdraw its support from the child abuse inquiry initiated by May.

Arron Banks has a plan to ‘Drain the Swamp’ of British politics from corruption. This seems to ignore the incredible antics of Liam Fox and instead focus on some of the most pro-remain voices of Clegg, Soubry and Lammy. This happens just as UKIP have been accused in a EU audit, which Farage does not think are carried out frequency enough, that it has spent hundreds of thousands of pounds improperly and may have to refund this. This is unfair. Apparently. In other UKIP’s news, the likely leader, Paul Nuttall, has said on the day that Aleppo’s last hospital was destroyed that he thinks Putin is behaving appropriately in Syria. Post-Truth indeed.

What we need is accountability for the national interest. Not any of this shit of blaming liberalism for the party political self interest of the last 40 years.

In light relief, Ed Balls might be popular at dancing but when it comes to leader of Labour he polls even worse than Corbyn. A fate only shared by Tony Blair. So it could be worse…

Anyway, I know there are few heads going down here, so I’m going to leave you with a link to a quote from Vaclav Havel:
www.indexoncensorship.org/2011/12/vacla-havel-index-on-censorship-ludvik-vakulik/
Vaclav Havel: "We became dissidents without actually knowing how"

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
PumpkinsOnTheMantlepiece · 21/11/2016 13:55

I hadn't clicked on these threads before, but loving the summary op! (.Although there are bits I don't understand tbh) so I willlurkhere I the vain hope of understanding it by the end of the thread!

usuallydormant · 21/11/2016 13:55

There are a lot of problems in France obviously and a lot of racism (mostly directed at those of North African heritage) but there isn't the same admiration for free market liberalism as in the UK and the US and I don't see any real desire outside FN to leave Europe. There is a lot of discontent with the inability of any party to make a difference but I don't think people in general are under the illusion that Marie and her lot would do any better.

As Mistrigri said, there isn't the same distrust of intellectuals and the elite here and education is valued more I think. Of course there are class structures as everywhere, but I don't think it is as entrenched as in the UK and the US.

I'm nervous but hopeful about France. Unfortunately I don't have a vote - I'm going to apply for nationality but I'd prefer to do it in a positive frame of mind than as a defensive measure to stop Marine throwing me out...

amaravatti · 21/11/2016 14:02

Thank you red for new thread.
Senator Aodhán Ó Riordáin’s Seanad speech on US election goes viral
Some one is speaking the truth here:
www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/trump-is-a-fascist-and-i-m-embarrassed-by-the-government-s-response-1.2873639
Please can we have Mr O Riordain, Ireland?

amaravatti · 21/11/2016 14:07

Are there any links to French, Austrian, Dutch and German opposition parties, including conservatives, so we could help campaign for the non extreme right?

InformalRoman · 21/11/2016 14:16

Alec Baldwin's Twitter is here: twitter.com/ABFalecbaldwin

The Donald tweeted:

I watched parts of @nbcsnl Saturday Night Live last night. It is a totally one-sided, biased show - nothing funny at all. Equal time for us?

Alec Baldwin's responses:

Equal time? Election is over. There is no more equal time. Now u try 2 b Pres + ppl respond. That's pretty much it.
You know what I would do if I were Prez? I'd be focused on how to improve the lives of AS MANY AMERICANS AS POSSIBLE.
I'd be focused on improving our reputation abroad, including actually fighting for freedom and not just oil.
I would make every effort 2 retrain Americans so 2 cre8 jobs. 1 way u make America gr8 again is 2 put it back 2 work.
I would make appointments that encouraged people, not generate fear and doubt.

LurkingHusband · 21/11/2016 14:17

Intriguing. No10 just floated possibility of extending Article 50 timeline. Presumed Brexit would happen in 2019, but PM has no fixed date.

I heard a snippet on the news on R4. My ears picked up a couple of points ...

  1. Theresa May saying "don't worry, there won't be a cliff edge" to businesses worried about Brexit and

  2. (more key) that negotiations will be complex and it will take time to secure the best deal. This sounds like the first coat - primer, or maybe acid-etching - in order to build up to an announcement that Brexit will take us beyond 2019 even if A50 is triggered on time.

LurkingHusband · 21/11/2016 14:18

Is there a UK equivalent of Alec Baldwin ?

lalalonglegs · 21/11/2016 14:22

Umm, Gary Lineker?

Thanks for posting, Informal (and Bathroom).

whatwouldrondo · 21/11/2016 14:28

Thank you Red

Actually Alec Baldwin went on tweeting.......www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-snl-twitter_us_5831af00e4b099512f834db3?

Sapphire The Scientists in the EU group are broadly welcoming of the increased investment and I hope it is a sign that May is going to put her money where her mouth is. Of course the devil will be in the detail and as Peregrina says there are other major challenges facing Science as a result of Brexit, it's not just funding, or even Freedom of Movement but also the membership of all those networks, platforms for shared research, knowledge sharing etc. that the EU has established and which make projects that are in collaboration with the EU much more effective than those with countries like the US.

whatwouldrondo · 21/11/2016 14:30

Informal you got there before me, but some other good tweets in response

InformalRoman · 21/11/2016 14:32

Ron that last tweet was a bit tucked away on my Twitter for some reason - but it';s a great kiss off line.

InformalRoman · 21/11/2016 14:35

Ron and not the first time Trump has had a hissy fit at Baldwin on SNL. Last time Trump was moaning about the media trying to rig the election.

LurkingHusband · 21/11/2016 14:42

The Scientists in the EU group are broadly welcoming of the increased investment and I hope it is a sign that May is going to put her money where her mouth i

Of course, such "promises" have to be gauged against (a) past performance, and (b) future predictions.

balance of probabilities makes (a) a dead loss. Far more promises have been forgotten/reneged on/"reimagined" than have ever been kept. By any government. Ever.

(b) is more intriguing ... where is this money coming from in a post-Brexit economy that is certain to experience some shrinkage - even if milk and honey are just around the corner ???? And, more importantly. If science is promised a ring-fenced budget, will the farmers want the same ? And the manufacturers ? Where will it end ?

I suspect the real reason Theresa May want's to be able to negotiate in secret is so she can promise anyone who asks the moon on a stick what they want in the knowledge that they won't be able to compare notes and realise she has promised them all 100% of the pie. Or should that be £350 million ?

LurkingHusband · 21/11/2016 14:46

Already Mays £2billion has been ripped apart ..

www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/21/mays_2bn_in_rd_spend_still_falls_short/
...
Blighty's GDP last year was around $2.678tn (£2.159bn). Therefore an additional £2bn in R&D will only raise its proportion of GDP spend to around 0.6 per cent.

(contd)

HummusForBreakfast · 21/11/2016 14:57

usually Im not sure about the discontent re Europe in France tbh.
A lot of people are very unhappy about what happens when they went to Euro and the shrinkage in buying power (prices went up but wages stayed put). A lot of people I talked to are still very ressentful of that and polls are showing a similar thing.

Of ourse, just like here, Europe is shown as 'THE' reason for things not going well when really it isn't just the EU.

But YY to the fact they arent keen on liberalism at all. Even Le Pen is more social than some of the Labour here!

RedToothBrush · 21/11/2016 14:59

The European Court of Justice beckons. And its potentially not just about a50 reversibility. Though that looks on the cards on way or another... and not from within the UK...

Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham
I can't disclose details but I am already working up a potential CJEU reference from outside UK raising revocability

www.ft.com/content/6609025a-adbc-11e6-ba7d-76378e4fef24?ftcamp=published_links%2Frss%2Fworld_uk_politics%2Ffeed%2F%2Fproduct
‘Many ways’ Brexit may go to EU courts, top ECJ judge says
Europe’s most senior judge outlines potentially pivotal role in UK’s departure

There are “many, many ways” Britain’s departure from the EU could end up before the European Court of Justice, the president of the EU’s highest court has said, underlining the institution’s potentially pivotal role as Brexit unfolds.

and

Mr Lenaerts declined to comment on the specifics of Brexit but warned that there were myriad unforeseen legal consequences of sovereign exit from the union that the EU’s top court may be called on to resolve. “I can’t even start intellectually beginning, imagining how and where and from which angle it might come,” said Mr Lenaerts.

and

The court’s jurisdiction would also stretch to the content of any exit deal and its implications for rights of citizens, companies and institutions under the treaties.

Steve Peers, a professor of EU law at Essex University, wrote: “It’s probably only a matter of time before some aspect of the Brexit issue gets decided by the EU courts; and there’s no small irony in that prospect.”

Unlike the US Supreme Court, which can dismiss cases it deems unworthy, the European Court of Justice is obliged to look at any request put before it. But even if the UK’s Supreme Court opts not to refer a question to Luxembourg, the ECJ could become involved.

Some senior EU officials argue that the UK remains bound by specific commitments made as a member, even after it has left the union and the treaties themselves cease to apply. This could leave Britain facing years of litigation in Luxembourg.

and

Without directly addressing to Britain’s possible exit negotiation, Mr Lenaerts did refer to past examples of where the ECJ has set limits to EU agreements with neighbours. “When the union concludes such an agreement, the union may not breach its own law,” Mr Lenaerts said.

This specifically regards the EU’s original attempt at forming a European Economic Area court — consisting of judges from the ECJ as well as EEA countries such as Norway and Iceland — which was found unlawful by the ECJ in 1991. The landmark ruling highlights that politicians may face constraints in creating a new legal architecture with Brexit Britain.

OP posts:
Mistigri · 21/11/2016 15:04

hummus are you in France? The euro was a long time ago, and at least outside the biggest cities, "real life" inflation is very low for most people. My weekly shop has barely changed in years, a typical small-town restaurant two course lunch has been €13 forever, house prices are static or down, and with low interest rates my new mortgage repayments will fall by €200 a month, due to an interest rate of 0.6% fixed for 10 years ....

HummusForBreakfast · 21/11/2016 15:08

Im French and still have a lot of connexion there.
This is what my family and friends are telling me.... (We had long discussions over Europe during the summer after the vote for Brexit).

I do know the Euro stuff is a long time ago. I know that. They didnt seem to think that it was relevant ....
But then they also have nothing to compare it with. They have no idea about countries where rate for a morgage isnt fixed (and the issues coming with it), house prices rising etc etc. So what they see is a deterioration since the Euro rather than all the positives you are noticing....

LurkingHusband · 21/11/2016 15:08

I'm no lawyer, but is there a possibility that one of the EU27 may ask the ECJ to rule if they are unhappy with the way things are going ?

DoinItFine · 21/11/2016 15:09

Hello, I have been away from these threads for a while.

But I saw this (which admittedly might have been posted before) and I thought of you all and how Brexit is an overwhelming stasis.

twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/772741002754985984

BREXIT - a short play not by Harold Pinter.

merrymouse · 21/11/2016 15:10

'Two course lunch'

If ever three words illustrated the difference between the UK and France! Grin

merrymouse · 21/11/2016 15:13

doinit Grin

whatwouldrondo · 21/11/2016 15:13

Lurking There are quite a few comments building up on the Scientists in the EU position, and they tend to respond to the comments of the Science community. They include highlighting that this is for business related R&D, not academic research, and not linked to any strategy for ensuring Science responds to the needs of society as a whole. It basically ignores pushing at the frontiers of science in favour of making money.

I thought we spent 1.5% of GDP on Science. This is one comment "UK spends 1.7% GDP on science. Below the OECD average. An extra $2 bn would push us to a mighty... 1.79% GDP. Still below the OECD average, and likely below Europe (~2% for EU28, and those numbers including us slowing things down). Potential loss of collaborations etc. not withstanding, the money (with expected strings, and murky destination) is obviously welcome. But trumpeting it as world beating or 'cutting edge' when your commitments are in the lower half of the table, is a bit much."

DoinItFine · 21/11/2016 15:13

Two course lunch for €13 more to the point!

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