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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris has lost it. Time for that emergency budge--- er tax giveaway.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/11/2016 11:17

Bloody hell where are we up to?

Trump is preparing for the White House. He has refused to give up his assets which will be a conflict of interest and maybe lead to corruption. He has just settled a fraud case out of court. One of the cases of illegal sexual behaviour has collapsed after the claimant was too afraid to proceed. His VP believes in stopping all abortions by any means necessary and beliefs in gay conversion therapy. He has appointed a white supremacist as his chief strategist. His attorney general is regarded as amnesty’s biggest enemy opposing just about all human rights bills as a senator. He has also been dogged by accusations of racism. His national security advisor supports torture techniques such as water boarding. These three appointments have been greeted with delight from the former leader of the KKK.

Man of the people, Nigel Farage is trying to undermine Theresa May and sideline the government by cozying up to Trump in front of a couple of gold doors. His long term intentions look increasingly wider than purely being about the EU and ever more sinister in nature. He is in danger of doing a rather good Moseley impression.

Meanwhile rumours persist of voter suppression and dubious election practices in several key states, which are hugely undemocratic and Hillary Clinton wins the popular vote.

These are all things you are supposed to ignore, and are just expected to believe that everything is okay and that it’s the fault of liberals for standing up for discrimination and that this discrimination is none existent in the first place. Unless your Head of State is named Merkel.

But don’t worry, our Head of State is set to intervene though. The Queen is due to invite Trump to Windsor and is our secret weapon. Like Kate is our secret Brexit weapon. The cost of this intervention? A £396million refurb of Buck Pally. If she can pull that off, hell, let’s just send her to Brussels instead of Johnson. We might get some good will even if Philip drops a clanger about prosecco.

Back in the UK, the a50 saga drags on. The NI case now joins the ‘People’s Challenge’ at the Supreme Court, as well as new representation coming from both the Scottish Government and Welsh assembly. The government defence has changed, with one of the key changes has been to describe our rights under the EU as different by calling them “internationally established rights” and therefore different to domestic rights. They now say that they previously agreed with the claimant that a50 was irrevocable, their position is now that whether it is irrevocable or revocable is irrelevant to the strength of the case, effectively leaving it open for the devolved governments to pursue this line.

Previously it was assumed that this would require a referral to the ECJ. It is not necessarily the case. The situation is more complex as was outlined in a HoC Library Briefing. In this, it states a referral might be legal unavoidable as otherwise could be open to damages, might not be needed as the Supreme Court itself holds the power to decide whether a50 is reversible or not or that the Supreme Court does not have the authority to refer until after a50 has been triggered (which changes the dynamics of things).

Even then, it might prove to be legally possible but politically impossible to reverse, it might require a unanimous agreement to reverse by the other 27 which might enforce conditions in doing so.

Several senior Conservatives have called for the government to drop the appeal. Oliver Letwin, argues that it is might up the government up to being vetoed by the devolved assemblies, Dominic Grieve thinks its simply unlikely to win, and Edward Garnier has said it leaves “an opportunity for ill motivated people to attack the judiciary and misconstrue the motives of both parties to the lawsuit”.

One of the Supreme Court judges has been criticised for outlining the case to law students in a speech due to misreporting. In the speech she said that the referendum was not legally binding before going on to explain that an act of parliament to trigger a50 might not be enough and that the Great Repeal Act might have to be passed to replace the European Communities Act before we can notify the EU of our intent to leave if the defense case holds up before she went on to explain the government’s position. Another Supreme Court judge has been called to excuse himself after his wife made pro-EU tweets as obviously by nature of being married, is completely biased.

A former lord chief justice has now warned that Liz Truss has caused a “constitutional breakdown” and may have broken the law by failing to defend judges.

I’m putting money on the live video feed of the Supreme Court breaking due to ‘unprecedented demand’. This of course is a conspiracy.

At the same time a Three Line Bill for a50 is prepared to put to the HoC with the intention that the HoC and HoL would not ‘dare defy it’. Except the Lib Dem Lords are suggesting they see no reason why they shouldn’t table an amendment that ensures parliamentary scrutiny and have consulted a constitutional lawyer over the matter. The feeling is that, if they don’t do this, then what is the point of the HoL? At the same time, measures to restrict the powers of the HoL over statutory instruments have also been dropped. This seems to be a good thing given the timing, until you find out the apparent reason; they apparently will need these powers to enact the Great Repeal Act.

Elsewhere a who’s who of the right of the Tory Party – 60 MPs – back a call to leave the Single Market and the Customs Union, whilst Hammond regards himself as the last voice of sanity in the Cabinet over the realistic challenges of Brexit.

Hammond is to deliver his Autumn Statement this week, which looks set to include tax breaks to those earning over £43,000 which Shadow Chancellor McDonnell agrees with. McDonnell of course has been doing a lot of agreeing with the government lately. Austerity looks unlikely to end. The NHS seems likely to as well.

Work and Pensions Secretary, Damien Green has been wetting his pants at the exciting opportunity to expand the gig economy. The growth of which I think few will argue has been a hugely contributory factor to feelings that drove the Leave vote. More Tory MPs have rebelled on cuts to disability benefits calling them cruel.

Liz Truss has had a riot from prisoners and a revolt from the prison staff in addition to her problems

Amber Rudd has been forced to admit there are secret files on the miners’ strike and Orgreave clashes which she did not take into consideration whilst making the Orgreave decision. Is that the faint whiff of a cover up? She has also had the largest victims charity withdraw its support from the child abuse inquiry initiated by May.

Arron Banks has a plan to ‘Drain the Swamp’ of British politics from corruption. This seems to ignore the incredible antics of Liam Fox and instead focus on some of the most pro-remain voices of Clegg, Soubry and Lammy. This happens just as UKIP have been accused in a EU audit, which Farage does not think are carried out frequency enough, that it has spent hundreds of thousands of pounds improperly and may have to refund this. This is unfair. Apparently. In other UKIP’s news, the likely leader, Paul Nuttall, has said on the day that Aleppo’s last hospital was destroyed that he thinks Putin is behaving appropriately in Syria. Post-Truth indeed.

What we need is accountability for the national interest. Not any of this shit of blaming liberalism for the party political self interest of the last 40 years.

In light relief, Ed Balls might be popular at dancing but when it comes to leader of Labour he polls even worse than Corbyn. A fate only shared by Tony Blair. So it could be worse…

Anyway, I know there are few heads going down here, so I’m going to leave you with a link to a quote from Vaclav Havel:
www.indexoncensorship.org/2011/12/vacla-havel-index-on-censorship-ludvik-vakulik/
Vaclav Havel: "We became dissidents without actually knowing how"

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Thread gallery
21
Brushedcottonpatterns · 30/11/2016 10:12

Neo Victorian perhaps, i don't think there was much emphasis on nationality in the Victorian era, or is this wrong?

merrymouse · 30/11/2016 10:14

Another point about immigrants and benefits is that by far the largest group of people on benefits are pensioners. Even retired people who pay taxes aren't actually working*. We rely on migrants to provide many of the services that keep the country going. The economy is far more complicated than being a net contributor or net beneficiary of the tax system.

*although, some of them provide child care and voluntary services - again, complicated!

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:19

Arbroath East (Angus):
SNP 35.0% (-8.8)
CON 27.0% (+12.2)
IND 17.2% (+17.2)
IND 11.8% (+11.8)
LAB 6.7% (-6.0)
LD 2.3% (-0.7)
SNP gain.

Scottish parl' voting intention (regional):
SNP: 39% (-6)
CON: 24% (+4)
LAB: 14% (-1)
GRN: 11% (+2)
LDEM: 6% (-)
UKIP: 4% (+2)
(via YouGov)

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB

New YouGov Scottish poll for Times finds support for independence down to 44% - lower than it was at the Sept 2014 referendum

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB
TMay sees sharp YouGov ratings drop in Scotland. To the doing job well/badly question she's moved from net PLUS 13% in Aug to MINUS 5% now

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB
Net Scottish YouGov well/badly ratings:
Sturgeon +11%
Davidson +25%
Corbyn -35%
May -5%
Dugdale -21%

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB

Analysis of the proposed new boundaries by Anthony Wells suggests that CON can win overall majority with 1.9% lead. LAB needs 13.5%

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Mistigri · 30/11/2016 10:26

CON can win overall majority with 1.9% lead. LAB needs 13.5%

How is this not gerrymandering?

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:39

It is.

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RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 10:45

A Wisconsin Court ruled that boundary changes to wards for the Senate were 'unconstitutional' because they stacked black votes and poor votes up in certain areas.

Yet this is exactly the same process the boundary commission is effectively doing in the UK with the proposed 2020 changes. At a time when there is high dissatisfaction with democracy in this country.

It will be hard for Tories to resist but also hard for the Lords to not throw out.

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lurkinghusband · 30/11/2016 10:47

Regarding the Polish government, does anybody know why they are trying to coze up with our government?

Because - not that facts matter anymore - because Poland and the UK have a long history of alliance (much like the UK and our oldest ally in Europe - Portugal). Incredibly, there is an affection for the UK, which - given the bravery that Polish pilots showed in WW2 - is disgustingly not reciprocated.

A few years ago, I worked in an office in Redditch, and co-worker (who I would pin as a UKIPer these days) was constantly moaning about hearing people speak Polish in the town centre. But then he had no idea that they flew for Britain* in WW2, or that there is a sodding massive London Landmark to their bravery on the A40.

*But what can you expect from someone who was born in Studley, and had never once been to London. We knew he was born in Studley, as he made a point of it, rather than being a "Brummie". It's hard to picture a smaller mind. Although there are people in the US who are born and die n the same state and never once leave it.

I've worked with all stripes over the years, but being in daily contact with this guy was a trial Sad. His "suspicions" about me were apparently confirmed when we worked with some offshore developers who appreciated my pigeon Hindi.

lalalonglegs · 30/11/2016 12:09

Talking about Wisconsin, I just went on the Jill Stein page and, alarmingly, Wisconsin has now upped the cost of a recount by $1million so she now has to raise even more money and it seems to be slowing down a bit Sad. I tried to donate myself but it's only open to US citizens (which is fair enough, really).

MangoMoon · 30/11/2016 12:15

The English are used to expecting benefits and are much less willing to work hard, go the extra mile or do low- paid jobs which they consider beneath them.

Are they?

whatwouldrondo · 30/11/2016 13:05

Brushedcotton The Victorians were extremely xenophobic, not to mention white supremacists. One of the founding moral tenets of Empire by Victorian times was a god given right to bring civilisation to the black and yellow of the world. It was even embedded in Science, see Phrenology, and in Literature. One of the ways that Emily Bronte others Heathcliff is to make him as dark as a lascar (asian sailor) (and there are even worse examples of racism in Jane Eyre). I could dig out any number of quotes if anyone doubts it. It persisted as was manifest in the reception of the first Caribbean immigrants.

Brushedcottonpatterns · 30/11/2016 13:42

MangoMoon i apologise to everyone on the thread for that comment, which is generalising and silly.

I responded feeling seriously aghast at how mean adults are behaving wrt supporting all the children at the catholic school, blaming immigrants for lack of funding rather than our government. Saying that , many English workers (my experience in the workplace) in lower paid jobs lack ambition and only do what they are told to do by their superiors (whilst bitching about their bosses and colleagues remorselessly) rather than going the extra mile, thinking ahead and being proactive in order to work to the highest possible standard.

I don''t believe one second that this is down to being 'English' but to decades of low expectations in the state education system. Of course not everyone is like this but there is a fear of being called a swot for working hard and being high achieving at school and at the work place.

MangoMoon · 30/11/2016 13:57

BrushedCotton Smile

It's ok, no need for an apology - I was being prickly, sorry.

merrymouse · 30/11/2016 14:02

Loads of racism in children's literature till the 70's and even 80's.

MangoMoon · 30/11/2016 14:26

YY merry.

When you read back things now it's so obvious and quite jarring.
Enid Blyton stuff definitely.

whatwouldrondo · 30/11/2016 14:46

Some background on that Victorian hero Livingstone's mission to bring the three Cs to Africa, commerce, Christianity and civilisation clearly Pritti Patel has been raiding her Ladybird collection

"This was a period in history when few Europeans doubted their innate superiority over the 'lesser' races of the world.

The theory that all the peoples of Europe belonged to one white race which originated in the Caucasus (hence the term 'Caucasian') was first postulated at the turn of the 19th century by a German professor of ethnology called Johann Blumenbach.

Blumenbach's colour-coded classification of races - white, brown, yellow, black and red - was later refined by a French ethnologist, Joseph-Arthur Gobineau, to include a complete racial hierarchy with white-skinned people of European origin at the top.

Britons like Livingstone felt they had a duty to 'civilise' Africa.

Such pseudo-scientific theories were widely accepted at the time and motivated Britons like Livingstone to feel they had a duty to 'civilise' Africa."

www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/abolition/scramble_for_africa_article_01.shtml

twofingerstoGideon · 30/11/2016 17:10

^When you read back things now it's so obvious and quite jarring.
Enid Blyton stuff definitely.^
Yes, even Noddy FGS.

PattyPenguin · 30/11/2016 17:14

brushedcotton, I was quoting from the Migration Observatory at the University of Oxford - so a reliable academic body, not a pressure or lobby group.
"EU migrants are less likely to claim out-of-work benefits but more likely to claim in-work benefits like tax credits, compared to the UK born"
www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/reports/eu-migration-welfare-benefits-and-eu-membership/

The Migration Observatory is frequently quoted by FullFact - an independent factchecking charity.

If we want people to base their decisions on facts rather than prejudice, we in turn need to have real facts, to the greatest extent that they are available.

merrymouse · 30/11/2016 18:05

The thing is, in work benefits are largely a function of being a member of a particular demographic group - what are EU migrants supposed to do - not claim them?

PattyPenguin · 30/11/2016 18:45

In-work benefits are going to be an increasing problem in any case. Soon there simply won't be enough well-paid jobs to provide the tax base to pay for them and for everything else people expect in the UK for a decent life.

These benefits were an attempt to alleviate the problems caused by globalisation and the hollowing out of the UK jobs market, factors which in fact were behind many people's votes to leave the EU (though being out of the EU will not solve these problems, and is likely to worsen them).

The entire economy needs root and branch reorganisation, but unfortunately I can't see those currently in power being willing to countenance that, never mind set about doing it.

Mistigri · 30/11/2016 19:17

"EU migrants are less likely to claim out-of-work benefits but more likely to claim in-work benefits like tax credits, compared to the UK born"

My initial reaction to this is that it almost goes without saying, since migrants are likely to be younger on average than the UK born. They are therefore simply more likely to be in the workforce than the UK born group (which will include relatively more pensioners).

Unless the numbers excludes pensioners?

shapesandshades · 30/11/2016 19:53

Thank you for clarifying patty and apologies to you too for my posting in a not too helpful style. I am so fed up with the narrative of immigrants as spongers, I know many, many people who have settled here and work 'hard', not a sponger in sight.

The only foreigner i have ever seen cheating the system was an American bloke who was my ex flatmates boyfriend at the time. He and his (English mate) worked cash in hand jobs and claimed all the benefits that were available to them. This was in the late 90s. They also smoked dope pretty much all day long Confused.

There comes a point where people like me, EU national settled here for 25 years with no real way back to my birth country who have participated as 'good' members of society, making friends, paying taxes, contributing to my work and social lives and lots of volunteering too. I now feel uncomfortable about my children "taking away school places" from English children despite the fact that they are British by birth.

I feel I have to make myself smaller (reflected in my body language) so not to offend and not to come across as an 'entitled foreigner who takes but doesn't give back'.

As it happens my dc are at the top of their class and don't need any additional teacher support but I still feel that my family and I are perceived by many as undeserving and impostors.

I can't shake this feeling off. I try to adjust my accent so that it isn't too obvious and keep my head down. Sad

That is so not my personality as I am normally bubbly, seeking contact and love making new friends. I have become very, very wary and have withdrawn as a result of the disgusting and stupid xenophobia promoted by this country's gutter press. I feel that the gutter press disturbs the national peace and am surprised how they get away with it. Worse than any terrorist organisation the DM, the Sun, The express are turning all their readers and more into hating envious beings deluded by the shit the 'news' sources distribute. Sad Sad

Sorry to take up so much space i know this is a factual thread which is brilliant and needed. is just to explain why my posts were negative and emotional rather than factual. Thanks

MangoMoon · 30/11/2016 20:20

the disgusting and stupid xenophobia promoted by this country's gutter press. I feel that the gutter press disturbs the national peace and am surprised how they get away with it. Worse than any terrorist organisation the DM, the Sun, The express are turning all their readers and more into hating envious beings deluded by the shit the 'news' sources distribute.

YY.

Your post was uncomfortable to read shapes, nobody should ever feel like that.
Flowers
It's shameful that the uk in 2016 can still feel so unwelcome.

(I can't put into words properly what I'm trying to say, sorry - everything I try to put down just comes out like condescending shit & that's not what I want to convey).

MariePoppins · 30/11/2016 20:36

Mango I am one pf those foreigners too and I can relate to shapes post tbh.
People ask me where I'm coming from within minutes. It never used to happen before June last year.

Re the DM and the Sun, did you know that Europe actually has told them they were inciting violence and xenophobia and needed to reign it in?
Except that not that surprisingly it has never been reported in the UK, nor has anything being done about it. Im pretty sure there must be some laws about incitation to racism/violence etc... that same that sort of talk unacceptable?

Do you remember the speeches done by some extremist Muslims in London that were tolerated because of 'free speech' and once issue with extremists and radicalisation became more pressing (and closer to home), they were then banned?
That's how it feels to me. In the name of he freedom of expression, the DM, the Sun and co are getting away with murder.

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