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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris has lost it. Time for that emergency budge--- er tax giveaway.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/11/2016 11:17

Bloody hell where are we up to?

Trump is preparing for the White House. He has refused to give up his assets which will be a conflict of interest and maybe lead to corruption. He has just settled a fraud case out of court. One of the cases of illegal sexual behaviour has collapsed after the claimant was too afraid to proceed. His VP believes in stopping all abortions by any means necessary and beliefs in gay conversion therapy. He has appointed a white supremacist as his chief strategist. His attorney general is regarded as amnesty’s biggest enemy opposing just about all human rights bills as a senator. He has also been dogged by accusations of racism. His national security advisor supports torture techniques such as water boarding. These three appointments have been greeted with delight from the former leader of the KKK.

Man of the people, Nigel Farage is trying to undermine Theresa May and sideline the government by cozying up to Trump in front of a couple of gold doors. His long term intentions look increasingly wider than purely being about the EU and ever more sinister in nature. He is in danger of doing a rather good Moseley impression.

Meanwhile rumours persist of voter suppression and dubious election practices in several key states, which are hugely undemocratic and Hillary Clinton wins the popular vote.

These are all things you are supposed to ignore, and are just expected to believe that everything is okay and that it’s the fault of liberals for standing up for discrimination and that this discrimination is none existent in the first place. Unless your Head of State is named Merkel.

But don’t worry, our Head of State is set to intervene though. The Queen is due to invite Trump to Windsor and is our secret weapon. Like Kate is our secret Brexit weapon. The cost of this intervention? A £396million refurb of Buck Pally. If she can pull that off, hell, let’s just send her to Brussels instead of Johnson. We might get some good will even if Philip drops a clanger about prosecco.

Back in the UK, the a50 saga drags on. The NI case now joins the ‘People’s Challenge’ at the Supreme Court, as well as new representation coming from both the Scottish Government and Welsh assembly. The government defence has changed, with one of the key changes has been to describe our rights under the EU as different by calling them “internationally established rights” and therefore different to domestic rights. They now say that they previously agreed with the claimant that a50 was irrevocable, their position is now that whether it is irrevocable or revocable is irrelevant to the strength of the case, effectively leaving it open for the devolved governments to pursue this line.

Previously it was assumed that this would require a referral to the ECJ. It is not necessarily the case. The situation is more complex as was outlined in a HoC Library Briefing. In this, it states a referral might be legal unavoidable as otherwise could be open to damages, might not be needed as the Supreme Court itself holds the power to decide whether a50 is reversible or not or that the Supreme Court does not have the authority to refer until after a50 has been triggered (which changes the dynamics of things).

Even then, it might prove to be legally possible but politically impossible to reverse, it might require a unanimous agreement to reverse by the other 27 which might enforce conditions in doing so.

Several senior Conservatives have called for the government to drop the appeal. Oliver Letwin, argues that it is might up the government up to being vetoed by the devolved assemblies, Dominic Grieve thinks its simply unlikely to win, and Edward Garnier has said it leaves “an opportunity for ill motivated people to attack the judiciary and misconstrue the motives of both parties to the lawsuit”.

One of the Supreme Court judges has been criticised for outlining the case to law students in a speech due to misreporting. In the speech she said that the referendum was not legally binding before going on to explain that an act of parliament to trigger a50 might not be enough and that the Great Repeal Act might have to be passed to replace the European Communities Act before we can notify the EU of our intent to leave if the defense case holds up before she went on to explain the government’s position. Another Supreme Court judge has been called to excuse himself after his wife made pro-EU tweets as obviously by nature of being married, is completely biased.

A former lord chief justice has now warned that Liz Truss has caused a “constitutional breakdown” and may have broken the law by failing to defend judges.

I’m putting money on the live video feed of the Supreme Court breaking due to ‘unprecedented demand’. This of course is a conspiracy.

At the same time a Three Line Bill for a50 is prepared to put to the HoC with the intention that the HoC and HoL would not ‘dare defy it’. Except the Lib Dem Lords are suggesting they see no reason why they shouldn’t table an amendment that ensures parliamentary scrutiny and have consulted a constitutional lawyer over the matter. The feeling is that, if they don’t do this, then what is the point of the HoL? At the same time, measures to restrict the powers of the HoL over statutory instruments have also been dropped. This seems to be a good thing given the timing, until you find out the apparent reason; they apparently will need these powers to enact the Great Repeal Act.

Elsewhere a who’s who of the right of the Tory Party – 60 MPs – back a call to leave the Single Market and the Customs Union, whilst Hammond regards himself as the last voice of sanity in the Cabinet over the realistic challenges of Brexit.

Hammond is to deliver his Autumn Statement this week, which looks set to include tax breaks to those earning over £43,000 which Shadow Chancellor McDonnell agrees with. McDonnell of course has been doing a lot of agreeing with the government lately. Austerity looks unlikely to end. The NHS seems likely to as well.

Work and Pensions Secretary, Damien Green has been wetting his pants at the exciting opportunity to expand the gig economy. The growth of which I think few will argue has been a hugely contributory factor to feelings that drove the Leave vote. More Tory MPs have rebelled on cuts to disability benefits calling them cruel.

Liz Truss has had a riot from prisoners and a revolt from the prison staff in addition to her problems

Amber Rudd has been forced to admit there are secret files on the miners’ strike and Orgreave clashes which she did not take into consideration whilst making the Orgreave decision. Is that the faint whiff of a cover up? She has also had the largest victims charity withdraw its support from the child abuse inquiry initiated by May.

Arron Banks has a plan to ‘Drain the Swamp’ of British politics from corruption. This seems to ignore the incredible antics of Liam Fox and instead focus on some of the most pro-remain voices of Clegg, Soubry and Lammy. This happens just as UKIP have been accused in a EU audit, which Farage does not think are carried out frequency enough, that it has spent hundreds of thousands of pounds improperly and may have to refund this. This is unfair. Apparently. In other UKIP’s news, the likely leader, Paul Nuttall, has said on the day that Aleppo’s last hospital was destroyed that he thinks Putin is behaving appropriately in Syria. Post-Truth indeed.

What we need is accountability for the national interest. Not any of this shit of blaming liberalism for the party political self interest of the last 40 years.

In light relief, Ed Balls might be popular at dancing but when it comes to leader of Labour he polls even worse than Corbyn. A fate only shared by Tony Blair. So it could be worse…

Anyway, I know there are few heads going down here, so I’m going to leave you with a link to a quote from Vaclav Havel:
www.indexoncensorship.org/2011/12/vacla-havel-index-on-censorship-ludvik-vakulik/
Vaclav Havel: "We became dissidents without actually knowing how"

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
HesterThrale · 29/11/2016 23:37

Trying, it's likely that the parents of the children who speak English as their second language also pay taxes here.
This argument reminds me of ones going around in June: that immigrants are a drain on our resources and are what are causing our public services to struggle. Actually I think we need to look more closely at 'austerity' policies since 2010 to find reasons. Budget cuts in health and education have cut services to the bone. Should we blame immigrants, the majority of whom pay taxes?

whatwouldrondo · 30/11/2016 01:15

Trying Why are Catholic parents entitled to the privilege, over all other tax paying parents whatever their beliefs or background, to a place for their child in a state funded Catholic School over and above the "choice" given to other parents? In this area that means non Catholic parents, including other Christians, having no offer of a place in a local school for their child, sometimes after term has started, and then inaccessible, whilst middle class parents clog up roads delivering their children to faith schools. I can assure you many Catholics, and other Christians believe that is unfair, indeed the Anglican diocese of London, Southwark, Oxford, Lincoln, Chester, Leicester and Chichester all advise their Parishes that their schools should serve their local community and have fair admissions that do not select on knowing when to get a child baptised and pew sitting (neither of which reflect actual faith, no school selection criteria puts windows on men's souls ) www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/11564793/Church-of-England-school-expels-prayers-for-places.html

merrymouse · 30/11/2016 06:23

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-38131721

It sounds as though the money is not just to help parents who speak English as a second language, but all parents who need support to help their children with reading.

I get the impression from the article that the initial outcry was being charged £1 to go to a nativity play.

There are plenty of threads on MN about schools constantly asking for money. However, you would need more context to understand whether the £1 for the nativity is unreasonable. Certainly many schools raise funds this way.

(Completely agree re: faith schools creating black holes where there is no local school for non church goers - or even people who go to the 'wrong' church).

AnnieKenney · 30/11/2016 06:27

This is an additional cost for special books over and above those usually required because there are a large number of EU nationals in the school who do not speak good English

How do you know they are EU nationals and not - for example - refugees from countries that we have been bombing?

merrymouse · 30/11/2016 06:43

It is likely, particularly given 'austerity', that the government is happily taking immigrant taxes without taking practical steps to ensure that local authorities can deliver required services.

Equally plenty of PTAs try to make up the gap when the government doesn't provide adequate support for children with SN or on low incomes.

Motheroffourdragons · 30/11/2016 06:48

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Peregrina · 30/11/2016 07:15

I couldn't help but notice in the article quoted, that the parent whining about immigrants didn't give their name, whereas the ones which were happy to pay up did.

Peregrina · 30/11/2016 07:20

But we don't want to discuss economic policy of the government.

Quite. £240 million allocated in the Autumn statement for more grammar schools, for example, could just easily have been the same amount of money dedicated to stocking school libraries. But no, Mrs May's vanity project has to be indulged.

whatwouldrondo · 30/11/2016 07:48

Judging by Table 7 on page 15 here, [http://www.worcestershire.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/1626/demographic_report_-_census_2011.pdf] , which shows that Worcester's population in 2011 was 89% White British with 3.6% White Other (which of course is not confined to EU nationals) and over 4% Asian (mainly from Pakistan and India, but also the Philippines are mentioned), then it is highly unlikely that those pupils with ESL are all EU nationals. It is more likely they are from the families of a small diverse immigrant community in the city.

merrymouse · 30/11/2016 07:48

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/29/donald-tusk-accuses-british-voters-backed-brexit-creating-anxiety

You are 'migrants'. We are 'ex pats'.

Westministenders. Boris has lost it. Time for that emergency budge--- er tax giveaway.
whatwouldrondo · 30/11/2016 07:50

The report also mentions that immigration in the area is the result of the availability of jobs, so they are likely to be tax payers too.

merrymouse · 30/11/2016 07:52

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/primary-school-defends-decision-charge-9350578

The children whose second language is English are Polish, Greek, Filipino, Punjabi, Malayalam (Indian), Bengali and Lithuanian.

PattyPenguin · 30/11/2016 08:04

Ron that depends on the nature of the jobs. People in low-paid jobs, particularly if they have dependents, as the parents of primary-age children manifestly do, are likely to get more in benefits (tax credits, housing benefit, etc) than they pay in tax and NI. The "migrants contribute through taxes" argument has huge caveats to it, and so I think shouldn't be over-emphasised.

merrymouse · 30/11/2016 08:22

The "migrants contribute through taxes" argument has huge caveats to it, and so I think shouldn't be over-emphasised.

But the same caveats apply to all taxpayers.

It's always difficult to estimate whether somebody is a net contributor unless they are in very narrow band at the top - and then you still have to take into account how much the benefits of the state (stability, roads, in work benefits for employees etc. etc.) helped them make their money.

However, we are always being told how much immigrants cost 'taxpayers'. You have to look at the other side of the coin.

Brushedcottonpatterns · 30/11/2016 08:24

patty i'm pretty sure that the % of EU citizens living in the uk and getting tax credit HB or job seekers is much lower than the % of british citizens claiming these benefits. Why? The English are used to expecting benefits and are much less willing to work hard, go the extra mile or do low- paid jobs which they consider beneath them. I'd say that EU citizens living in the UK contribute more to the coffers than they take out Smile Most are extremely hard working. Very often they push they children much more to make a success of school and are ambitious wanting to integrate and contribute. This should definitely be emphasised Smile.

whatwouldrondo · 30/11/2016 08:41

Patty Main employers are Worcester Bosch and Yamazaki (machine tools), both employing skilled workers. University of Worcester are also a significant local employer. Unemployment in the part of Worcester the school is in is 0.7%. One of the fastest growing economies of any City in the U.K. according to the Chamber of Commerce. In my experience, and from the evidence, it is not a low wage economy or one that is struggling.

PattyPenguin · 30/11/2016 08:50

Actually, brushedcottonpatterns, EU citizens are more likely than UK citizens to be claiming in-work benefits, though less like to be claiming out-of-work benefits.

On balance, according to FullFact, "the fiscal impact of migration in the UK is relatively small (costing or contributing less than 1% of the country's overall Gross Domestic Product)".

Bananagio · 30/11/2016 08:51

Good article in the Guardian today re Italian referendum this weekend. Much more factual and less hysterical than the message coming from certain quarters making out that this is Italy's Brexit moment. Not that am minimilising possible resulting consequences but am sick of the hijacking and twisting of this vote to suit certain agendas. And yes x 1000 to what they say about man of the people Grillo being the one against changing the status quo and reforming the Senate. Absolute hypocrisy Angrywww.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/30/italy-referendum-all-you-need-to-know-about-renzis-crunch-vote
In other news cannot believe that paying £1 to a school for a nativity play has become a Thing because of the anti immigration feeling over there in the U.K. Am ashamed of fellow Catholics who would actually make a fuss about this (unless they were on the breadline). Especially considering that for example Polish immigrants are actually giving the Catholic Church a much need boost in terms of attendance etc.

TuckersBadLuck · 30/11/2016 08:56

Bloody immigrants, coming over here wanting rooms in our inns. Grin

lurkinghusband · 30/11/2016 08:57

In other news, it seems that trade deals are irrelevant to the government, as they have just ensure the UK becomes a no-go zone for businesses using encryption.

www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/30/investigatory_powers_act_backdoors/

What country will use a UK located IT provider now ?

Bananagio · 30/11/2016 09:00

Grinexactly Tucker.
Think these so called Christians should maybe look a bit into what the faith they profess to follow says in the main and a bit less into it being just a reason to have a place at the school they want.

merrymouse · 30/11/2016 09:01

Actually, brushedcottonpatterns, EU citizens are more likely than UK citizens to be claiming in-work benefits, though less like to be claiming out-of-work benefits.

Because proportionately, they tend to be working. As long as most of them are working, that will always be the case.

Brushedcottonpatterns · 30/11/2016 09:02

"Actually, brushedcottonpatterns, EU citizens are more likely than UK citizens to be claiming in-work benefits, though less like to be claiming out-of-work benefits."

Doubtful.

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2016 09:22

It's one thing showing Christian charity and it's another having to pay extra for books for those non UK children.

Seriously?

Are you saying that its an abuse of Christian charity to buy books for non UK children? Seriously?

What is Christian charity if it doesn't extend to buying books? Last time I checked Christian charity worked all around the world, helping those in need regardless of their own religion or what language they spoke. Not to mention the current Pope took the name Francis because he was particularly concerned about the poor.

Say you don't want to pay if you like. Say that you are hard up and would struggle to pay even just a pound. Say that the government should be funding schools enough so they don't have to rely on parents for anything.

But don't dress it up as being somehow unacceptable and beyond the teachings of Christianity and its exploitative. Cos that's just rot and shows you up as not sharing those Christian values.

It sounds like those American Right Wing Hard Line 'Christians' who make judgment of others over who is 'deserving' and who is 'undeserving. Which is, in fact, incredibly unchristian.

OP posts:
Brushedcottonpatterns · 30/11/2016 10:11

I couldn't agree more with "Say you don't want to pay if you like. Say that you are hard up and would struggle to pay even just a pound. Say that the government should be funding schools enough so they don't have to rely on parents for anything. But don't dress it up as being somehow unacceptable and beyond the teachings of Christianity and its exploitative."

According to the catholic envy is a grave sin. Not wanting to pay £1.00 to see the nativity because the thus collected funds will enable children who need additional help to catch up really is nothing else but envy and xenophobia.

I am absolutely appalled at how so many people have fallen for the 'immigrants' are taken what's ours line, rather than austerity is fucking us over and the conservative government has left us in the lurch. Stupid, stupid people. Angry

I can totally see how we are back to Victorian times where there allegedly are the deserving and undeserving people all based on morality and nationality. Those who have misgiving about the poor and needy being supported, may you never find yourself in that position.

Regarding the Polish government, does anybody know why they are trying to coze up with our government?

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