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Brexit

Things in Common

192 replies

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2016 21:25

This has been suggested by BoredofBrexit, to try and see if there is common ground between Leavers and Remainers.

I like the idea, but I do worry that this might not work out as planned. I just ask everyone to post in the spirit of this rather than critiquing others too much, though I appreciate this might be a big ask. Better to say what you AGREE with rather than point out things you disagree with.

The Hope Not Hate campaign, which was set up in 2004 in response to provide a positive antidote to the politics of hate as the BNP was winning substantial votes and local councillors in the North of England and they regarded traditional anti-racism and anti-fascism tactics as failing.

They have this blog post from earlier this month:
www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick/the-far-right-are-on-the-ascendency-but-they-do-not-own-the-future-5058
The far right is on the ascendency but it does not own the future

Part of it reads:
We are also likely to see growing support for far-right parties across Europe and with forthcoming elections in Austria, France, Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands – to list just a few – we could also see far-right parties/politicians increase their representation and even enter government.

More worryingly, has been the adoption of far-right ideas into the political mainstream, so that even if the parties fail to win power their ideas will.

We can shut ourselves away and get depressed. We can huddle together in our little progressive circles and social media echo chambers and moan about why people can't see the truth – or we can get organised and do something about it. And that is what I intend to do.

But the very fact that far-right ideas are appealing and gaining traction should make us rethink our own approach. The fact that they are winning and we are not should make us accept that we are doing something wrong. Our ideas and tactics are clearly not resonating.

We must reassess how we do politics. We need to figure out how we can have a modern economic system that doesn't throw whole communities on the scrap heap. But the Left also needs to rethink how it engages with white working class communities so as to express genuine empathy and understanding. We need to understand the need of communities to their tradition and culture, and not appear to be meddling outsiders sneering and insulting their way of life.

Opposition to immigration and multiculturalism might be the prism through which people are increasing expressing their discontent, but accepting that should not get us to ignore genuine grievances and anxieties. We cannot condemn everyone who raises concerns about immigration as a racist. Some clearly are, but others have genuine concerns.

Our Fear and HOPE report shows that the numbers of people with strident anti-immigrant views are declining. Many more though have concerns about the pace of change and the pressures on public services and society's infrastructure. Whether we agree with these concerns or not, it is vital we don't dismiss them without a second thought and write off these people as racists.

Though I do note the date of this report is 2011, and things have changed considerably this year, I do think its the right tone and probably the best way to kick off a thread like this.

OP posts:
WrongTrouser · 05/12/2016 12:47

Fawful

Please read what two leavers on this thread wrote in answer to ron's post. If you cannot accept that what leavers on this thread say is their view is indeed their view, and think you know better what is their view, and want to keep arguing about what you think their view is rather than what they think their view is, then it looks like you are more interested in scoring points against leavers than on finding "things in common".

MangoMoon Sun 04-Dec-16 15:24:08
He (teacher on QT) was wrong re the reasons for NHS places etc - as Billy Bragg rightly points out (the author of whateouldrondo's post) it is the fault of successive govts and the easy option is to blame immigrants

MangoMoon Sun 04-Dec-16 15:55:39
He (teacher on QT) was entirely wrong with his points about lack of drs appts etc - and this misinformation has been (and still is) peddled as truth within the populist argument

WrongTrouser Sun 04-Dec-16 17:38:47
What he (BB) says about NHS and social care under-funding is quite true

I agree with his (BB) main point though – if we want decent public services we need to vote for a government who will increase taxes

I agree that the answer to underfunding of services is to raise taxes and increase the funding of services

WrongTrouser · 05/12/2016 12:51

ron I agree with your point that the teacher was very unprofessional to raise those issues in a public forum and that as a teacher, he has a responsibility to the pupils, school and community first and foremost, and that speaking has he has done will have been detrimental to the school community.

MangoMoon · 05/12/2016 12:53

I'm asking why you think it would be good of me to, like you, patronise someone who makes a leap from hearing foreign languages in a playground to the rise A&E waiting times. He didn't make a causal link with words, but one led to the other in the same sentence and I presume it's not totally random. Just because he doesn't use the word 'because' or spell out his discomfort doesn't mean I for one can't see exactly what he means. So yes he is scapegoating, and I'm not sure we stand united against that.

Again, I invite you to actually read my words instead of deciding what I think.

Rather than jumping on an inference that he is 'uncomfortable hearing foreign languages' - which he did not say, why not jump on his misinformed opinion re the doctors etc.

When someone says out loud that 'immigration is to blame for xyz' - don't say Racist! Scary! Xenophobe! - instead, robustly point out the errors in his statement.

The reason politicians aren't doing that is because that would require them to admit their failings.
Labour failed, the Lib Dems failed (during coalition) & the Tories failed.
They all failed.
But they don't want to just come out & say it - so instead they deflect by picking up on the bits that suit them.

whatwouldrondo · 05/12/2016 12:57

The point of this thread is to get away from what divides us, especially if it is defined by the Daily Mail and certain writers in the Times and Telegraph too, and focus on what we believe in common.

I think the issue for me is not whether that teacher was racist but why a professional felt that it was fine to discuss as an issue what goes on in the playground of his school in a programme like Question Time? This may not have been an ignorant racist but he did feel able to raise an immigration related issue on a programme that has become notable lately mainly for it's focus on division. Surely if there is an issue it is to be dealt with by the professionals determining a strategy that unites the parent body, as I highlight there is plenty of experience of that in the local area.

MangoMoon · 05/12/2016 12:57

Ron, agree with your last post completely.

(Although I do think Brexit will be best for the future).

MangoMoon · 05/12/2016 12:58

I meant your earlier last post Ron (xposted with your actual last one!).
But I agree with your last one too fwiw.

WrongTrouser · 05/12/2016 13:05

When someone says out loud that 'immigration is to blame for xyz' - don't say Racist! Scary! Xenophobe! - instead, robustly point out the errors in his statement
The reason politicians aren't doing that is because that would require them to admit their failings
Labour failed, the Lib Dems failed (during coalition) & the Tories failed. They all failed
But they don't want to just come out & say it - so instead they deflect by picking up on the bits that suit them

YY to this.

WrongTrouser · 27/01/2017 14:38

I just thought I'd return to this thread. At one point it looked like dislike of Tony Blair might be a "thing in common", but not for long - posters arrived to defend him.

I tried to rally you all round celebrating the political demise of Zac Goldsmith (after his racist campaign against Sadiq Khan), but there weren't may takers.

How about - despair at Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour party? Can we agree on that?

I have to admit I thought he was a Good Thing for a while (being of a more lefty persuasion) but I now think he is making a right hash of things. From what I've read in recent weeks, this is not an uncommon view, whatever people's politics or view on Brexit. We desperately need a decent opposition and Jeremy just seems to be making it up as he goes along.

Possibly not a "thing in common" truly in the spirit of the thread, but desperate times.

Bolshybookworm · 27/01/2017 15:03

Definitely with you on that one, wrong! I think a lot of remainers would feel far more reassured if there was a decent opposition in place to help thrash out a deal.

WrongTrouser · 19/04/2017 20:47

Joy at seeing the back for now of George Osbourne? Do we all have that in common?

Anon1234567890 · 19/04/2017 23:15

I am a neither. Wanted to either be fully in the EU or fully out. I felt we were holding back the EU, wouldn't have minded the Euro or the metric system, could maybe have embraced an EU army. Turkey had me on the fence.

I accepted the result so am now a leaver. I have no problem with the immigration levels that we currently have, as long as the UK is in control. Would accept payments to EU bodies on a case by case basis, not a general budget contribution. On the fence about the EU police warrant. Happy to accept EU regs as long as we dont have to follow them for countries outside the EU.

Currently feeling like I want to be friends with the EU, as close as possible, but not ruled by them.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 20/04/2017 10:31

anon

I accepted the result so am now a leaver

Sorry what does this mean? Does it mean that because you have accepted the result it makes you a leaver or would you now vote leave cos you have been won over...or just accepting

I have accepted the result and think that we shouldn't reverse it , but i wouldnt vote leave if i had my time again

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 20/04/2017 10:33

And agree with wrong

I think Jeramy is old school labour and i dont think they will ever get in again

Dh likes Chukka....a life long tory voter when he can be arsed but he would vote labour for him

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 20/04/2017 10:33

Agree with bolshys last post

Anon1234567890 · 20/04/2017 14:01

Sorry what does this mean? Does it mean that because you have accepted the result it makes you a leaver or would you now vote leave cos you have been won over...or just accepting

It means I wanted the UK to commit to either result fully, I hated this half in half out whinging all the time attitude, so I decided to go with what ever side won. Leave won so I now support leave.

The genie is out of the bag so lets go for it and make it work.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 20/04/2017 14:04

anon

Thank you

unicornsIlovethem · 20/04/2017 14:20

I know the thread has moved on but on early 'things in common' I'd like to offer that there are huge structural problems in the country -

NHS kept going by goodwill of staff;
Lack of and cost of social care
Lack of housing
Poor infrastructure for roads, railway lines and broadband;
Stuck using inefficient systems because it's too difficult to change;
Inequality
Disparity in educational achievements between rich and poor children;
Insecurity about the UK's current role in the world and personal worries for future.
Worries about changing culture (yes, I know but it's still a legitimate concern).

Etc

The Brexit vote seemed to me to encapsulate a lot if this from all angles. I'm definitely (and still) a remainer but would be okay with soft Brexit on EEA/Swiss terms.

Unfortunately, it is all under the control of the uk government and more or less always has been. All governments have failed to sort out any of it, labour tinkered more successfully than most, but not enough. All governments blamed the EU for their failure and lack of vision.

I wonder how much longer they'll be able to get away with it for. Possibly until 2022, but after that?

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