Things in Common

[RedToothBrush]

This has been suggested by BoredofBrexit, to try and see if there is common ground between Leavers and Remainers.

I like the idea, but I do worry that this might not work out as planned. I just ask everyone to post in the spirit of this rather than critiquing others too much, though I appreciate this might be a big ask. Better to say what you AGREE with rather than point out things you disagree with.

The Hope Not Hate campaign, which was set up in 2004 in response to provide a positive antidote to the politics of hate as the BNP was winning substantial votes and local councillors in the North of England and they regarded traditional anti-racism and anti-fascism tactics as failing.

They have this blog post from earlier this month:
www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick/the-far-right-are-on-the-ascendency-but-they-do-not-own-the-future-5058
The far right is on the ascendency but it does not own the future

Part of it reads:
We are also likely to see growing support for far-right parties across Europe and with forthcoming elections in Austria, France, Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands – to list just a few – we could also see far-right parties/politicians increase their representation and even enter government.

More worryingly, has been the adoption of far-right ideas into the political mainstream, so that even if the parties fail to win power their ideas will.

We can shut ourselves away and get depressed. We can huddle together in our little progressive circles and social media echo chambers and moan about why people can't see the truth – or we can get organised and do something about it. And that is what I intend to do.

But the very fact that far-right ideas are appealing and gaining traction should make us rethink our own approach. The fact that they are winning and we are not should make us accept that we are doing something wrong. Our ideas and tactics are clearly not resonating.

We must reassess how we do politics. We need to figure out how we can have a modern economic system that doesn't throw whole communities on the scrap heap. But the Left also needs to rethink how it engages with white working class communities so as to express genuine empathy and understanding. We need to understand the need of communities to their tradition and culture, and not appear to be meddling outsiders sneering and insulting their way of life.

Opposition to immigration and multiculturalism might be the prism through which people are increasing expressing their discontent, but accepting that should not get us to ignore genuine grievances and anxieties. We cannot condemn everyone who raises concerns about immigration as a racist. Some clearly are, but others have genuine concerns.

Our Fear and HOPE report shows that the numbers of people with strident anti-immigrant views are declining. Many more though have concerns about the pace of change and the pressures on public services and society's infrastructure. Whether we agree with these concerns or not, it is vital we don't dismiss them without a second thought and write off these people as racists.

Though I do note the date of this report is 2011, and things have changed considerably this year, I do think its the right tone and probably the best way to kick off a thread like this.

Sorry, what I meant was that those were quotes from Remainers on this thread, and I agree with them wholeheartedly.

If we talk about our kids, partners, parents and life experiences, we'd find we have loads and loads in common!

Politics? Not so much.

YY Birdy

1)Remain from a decidedly non privileged north of England background
2)I lived in Scotland and predominantly England growing up and have family from both. Love them both and the U.K. as a whole.
3)Live in Italy with Italian ds and dp and love it here. Will never feel Italian rather than British and nor do I try to but do feel European (EU rather than just geographical) as well as British as it is the existence of FOM that meant I was able to build a life here I love. With no money or family history of anyone doing anything similar behind me it was unlikely I would ever have done it had it not been so easy.
4) I feel there is absolutely no conflict between these connections to different countries and unions in the same way as I am capable of loving more than one person at a time. I find the idea that this means I am a citizen of nowhere or that I secretly despise Britain baffling.
5) I am left in my politics with a desire to see a progressive alliance, even if that means I compromise on my "lefter" political beliefs as I want to see coalition and building common ground. I think labeling Leavers or Remainers as left,right, fascist, liberal or whatever is not useful or accurate as Brexit is an issue which transcends party lines.
6) I have been guilty of the above due to anger at the result. I still feel anger from a personal perspective but now think we need to be focused on finding common ground and a solution that is bearable to the largest majority of people we can.
7) I have accepted we are leaving. I would like to see an EEA solution negotiated but I don't think it's going to happen as both sides have their red line as FOM. I am personally going down the Italian citizenship and marriage route whatever the outcome of negotiations as the insecurity I have felt since the vote has been hugely stressful and destabilizing on a personal level. I have found the lack of empathy towards U.K. citizens in EU states and vice versa has been one of the main reasons for my anger.
8)I think we will see the EU gradually reform or break up. If it reforms I would like to be part of that. If it breaks up we are not going to be shielded from the fallout so I would still have preferred to stay in. I think gradual reforms are the most likely outcome.
9) I get hot under the collar when I hear people in the U.K. blaming the EU for austerity and the results of austerity when austerity was a path chosen by the U.K. Government. Italy has truly suffered under austerity from the EU but that still isn't enough to make me want to leave. It is also truly suffering from the lack of coherent EU policy to deal with the refugee crisis (and that hasn't been helped by the shameful response from the U.K.).In short I see the EU as extremely flawed (but I would still rather be in than out).
10) I think the widening of the terms "elites" to cover anyone who is an expert in their field, who has taken advantage of FOM, who lives in a big city etc etc is hugely damaging and serves no one other than the very small percentage of true elites who do pull the strings in most areas of U.K. life. Widening that to include a large percentage of the 48% lets the true elites hide in plain view in amongst a crowd of university lecturers, Tefl teachers in Spain and people who live an average life in a run of the mill borough. And to choose my 2 most despised Elite representatives from both sides you can be sure that Boris and Blair will only benefit from this misrepresentation of what the Elite actually is.

Whatwouldrondo:
I agree with everything in your post.
I don't live in London myself but I know loads of people (from school and uni mostly) who have moved down there and I love the place. I don't feel disconnected from London and Londoners at all.
I do think that investment and an increase of well paid jobs (but how?) in regional areas of the UK would benefit London too. At the moment it's like the decent jobs are in one part of the country and the affordable housing is in another (massive oversimplification, I know). I think that a more balanced UK would alleviate some of the problems in London, which are in part due to overcrowding. Maybe that's naive though.
I was very disappointed (but not surprised) to realise that the "Northern Powerhouse" stuff was just soundbitey bollocks.

I think birdy that I have a lot of values and aims in common with the leavers on here. The best way to achieve those aims, however, we may disagree on.

Also, if I'd seen any acknowledgement by our PM that more than 16 million people did not want this, coupled with some sort of attempt to satisfy the whole of our nation, rather than 17 million of its citizens, I might have rethought my position, but I haven't seen that either.

I have to agree with this. And the fact that it's being pushed by wealthy men like John Redwood, Ian Duncan Smith etc., who will be all right jack and able to ride out any austerity. I would also add that some of those 17 million, we don't know how many, because no one has bothered to find out, were voting for the NHS. They, along with the rest of us, have been told that they can get stuffed. So the true figure could well be less than 17 million.

Other than that, I have not much to add to ron's post, except I grew up in Wales and Northern England. Wales was losing jobs and industries in the 1950s long before we were in the Common Market, so although it's convenient to blame The EU and globalisation it was neither of those things then.

Quite a number of us on both sides of the fence think that the starting point would be a proper Coalition Government, as during the War. Theresa May is not the person to lead that. It needs to be someone who is a reconciler, which she most certainly isn't.

I'm sorry ron that I joined in with the othering of London . I'm a born and bred Londoner who, paradoxically, moved away for work. I love London. The point I was trying to make was that we remainers are not all London liberal elites as is often implied by the media and a certain faction of leave fanatics.

I also think that we have anger and suspicion in common. My feelings vary from day to day and today I am feeling angry. Angry that we're spending billions on something so many of us feel is at best unnecessary and at worst massively damaging. Angry that the Government's default position is to lower taxes for businesses. Angry that my opinion is unimportant now, even though 16m other people share it.

I said earlier that I accept that Brexit will happen, but I have a confession - I really hope it doesn't.

Interesting thread. I'm an ardent remainer. Grew up in the South East, outside London, now live in the East in a pro-leave area.

Ideologically I am quite far to the left but am not a Corbyn fan and don't usually vote Labour. I consider myself a European - I want to be connected to our nearest neighbours as an official member of the EU, making decisions that affect us all together. I feel I have more of a sense of shared history and culture with other European countries than with America, for example. I lived in a European city that had a strong American presence and I generally found I personally had more cultural similarities with the Europeans I met than the Americans.

From a personal (selfish?) point of view, I have studied and lived/worked in another EU country. It was a great experience and I want my children to have the same opportunities. It also helped me to develop fluency in another language.

I am pro-immigration. My experience of immigration is largely through my job - I work in education in an area with relatively high levels of immigration, particularly from Eastern Europe. My personal experience of this has been positive.

I am also proudly British. I love to support team GB in the Olympics and am a monarchist. I like the Royal Family and love all the pomp and tradition that Britain does so well.

I've also been guilty of 'othering' London.

When I refer to the London elites or liberal elites etc, I am not actually encompassing London as a whole in that, or indeed all Remainers.
It is more specifically the career politicians who are so focussed on London they ignore the rest of the uk, all to further their own interests - and the shouty thought police who shout down anyone who doesn't think as they're 'told' to.

I realise that my use of the phrasing has not come across entirely as I meant it.

Have agreed with Peregrina also on another thread about a coalition govt.
Definitely to see us through the next 5-10 years - not just for Brexit but for the problems in the country as a whole.

Optimistically I would like to think that the politicians could put aside their egos to work for the greater good, and that by unifying rather than fighting & sniping that it would enable the various factions within the U.K. to come together also.

Tony Blair's approach to it all is to stir up more fighting and animosity (I don't know why I am shocked by this), and as such I wish he would fuck off with some urgency.

" I would also add that some of those 17 million, we don't know how many, because no one has bothered to find out, were voting for the NHS."

Peregrina - how would it be possible to find out? Surely no one gives polls on political issues any credence any longer, do they?

I agree, it would be almost impossible to find out who voted for the NHS.

In the Witney by-election, one of the big issues was the closure of a local surgery, because two of the partners were retiring, and couldn't get replacements. I would take that as some sort of indication that some of Robert Courts 19,000 lost Tory votes were pro-NHS ones.

Peregrina - I must live very close to you.
We have geographical location in common at least!

Would be open to a coalition government as well if it involved representatives from all parties. And mango am 100% in agreement with your view on Blair.

I think there needs to be much more cross party consensus building rather than using party lines to blame everyone else for your own mistakes
Agree with this absolutely, it's happening too much at local and national level (councils selling off assets in their last week before losing local elections/dismantling the NHS from the back end rather than working on a long term sustainable solution from the front)

I am concerned by the lack of rational discussion about the implications of Brexit, and how the 'opposition' has completely dissolved, allowing the Tory right wing to take over.

Long term have been concerned about the pressure on public service jobs - teaching, nursing and now medicine, the unattainable goals making the jobs impossible, removing one of society's middle layers, creating a hard divide 'elites' and 'others'.

Who on earth thinks that Milo fellow is standing for ordinary white people or represents them in any way. I saw him on C4 news trying to shout over Cathy Newman. It was just a profile of an aggressive, bullying waner. Just shout everyone else down. Can't engage in a discussion. Unless someone thinks all ordinary white people are just shts like that. The sly, shifty look reminded me of Boris Johnson in front of a parliamentary committee.

I tried to watch a clip but only got a few seconds in, couldn't bear it.

Doesn't Milo realise that as a gay man he is vulnerable? If not, he's more stupid than he looks.

Interesting thread thank you Red and Bored. Not much to add as to why I voted leave really.

I agree with most other comments, The Bottom line for me is political freedom, it is all.

Our government could not exist within the EU. Other Nations ignored Brussels and bent rules when they needed to, ours could not.
Political freedom is All, everything and I hope to get that back. There is not one good reason I can think of to politically align ourselves in such a way with 27 other nations with vastly different economies, political and social standards.

In fact I would go so far as to say I have no idea what the politicians who thought this would be a good idea for the UK were thinking. The way the work restrictions on FOM movement was done is a crime agaisnt the people of this country and the fact no systems were already in place before such chaotic mass movement was inflictedon this country has meant a totally free reign for criminals to flood in the UK and go on a rampage.

But apparently its OK to throw innocent UK civilians under this bus because some people need close political ties with the EU to be able to feel European.

Luckily for me, I already feel European, literally every night - my DH is only a quarter British. My whole family is a rainbow from Europe and all over the world. My feelings on this have not changed since the vote.

Political freedom is all.

I genuinely wondered if I should post on here after reading almost every poster feeling the need to emphasise some sort of otherness from London.

Please don't get me wrong. I love London, but it IS so different from everywhere else. I had lots of friends there, but most have been pretty much forced to leave. I used to spend pretty much every other weekend in London in the mid 2000s. I've not been in a while and its stunned me how much it has changed in that short time.

The culture is very much one of a global metropolis and perhaps in that sense has more in common with other megapolis like New York and Tokyo, than it does with it does with say Hull at times. I think there was some research done in to this as a concept a couple of years ago, and has led to several megapolis establishing common ties and trying to learn about how to cope with infrastructure and social challenges from sharing experiences and how certain schemes have faired.

One of the problems with that, is there is little need to leave London and go anywhere else. I completely understand why it is happening and don't necessarily blame anyone for it. It is what it is.

London represents the 'outlier' for our country rather than being the average, and I think this is deserving of being mentioned, because it tends to be represented as the model for the whole country and it tends to dominate not just economically but also culturally and that's not a true reflection of this country.

There has been this fallacy that Remainers are all part of this metropolis culture and don't have contact or anything in common with the Sunderlands of the nation.

For me the BBC moving to Manchester has been a very good thing generally. It has changed representation in the news to a degree but there still needs to be more done to focus on other places. I know several people who work for the BBC and moved with it, and have been surprised by the change in lifestyle, and have largely found it a positive thing. That said I find it frustrating the way in which the BBC tends to represent the Northern provisional towns as 'grim' rarely much more. There are lots of persistent stereotypes which have helped to create much of this division imo.

I do feel that one of the reasons we don't have good representation for the north is because MPs who are not from these areas (and this includes MPs in leafy rural areas) don't have contact or exposure to these parts of the UK and don't even see it on the tv, in a positive fashion. Its not just because they are not from a particular background or have not experienced certain things in life themselves. The media does play a part in this, and that isn't just restricted to news coverage.

I hope that makes sense without upsetting anyone further.

I think there is a universal dislike for Tony Blair.

I'd be more surprised if anyone expressed a liking for him. That would be a very brave admission!

I personally think that Milo is not a terribly happy individual. What stuck me in the interview on C4 was not what he said, but his facial expressions. Watch it on mute. Its as telling as what he says. I feel sorry for the guy more than hating him.

Admirers of his rabid invective must want their propaganda from a vacuum free from any objective or reasonable analysis or critique.

squishy (and everyone else) Yes I struggle with exactly how you spread the prosperity out of London. I posted an article on the other thread about the northern brain drain where northern politicians seemed to be focused on transport links. I am not entirely sure that is the whole answer, or indeed what the question even is? If this were China they would be pouring millions into infrastructure development and economic plans for the cities to create mini London megaopolis's around the country. However the big cities like Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds that have expanded economically were not the source of the Brexit vote. I don't think that if you live in Sunderland or Barnsley or Boston (northish ) and voted Leave that is what people voted for either. The problem is that they want their communities to have the industry and jobs that return their status without it changing their communities, either in terms of greater urbanisation or a traditional "British" way of life. I am not sure that in the global economy that is something that anyone can deliver?

RTB: I think there is a universal dislike for Tony Blair.

Quite. He's not someone I'd want to have fighting my corner.

Tony Blair's approach to it all is to stir up more fighting and animosity (I don't know why I am shocked by this), and as such I wish he would fuck off with some urgency.
I don't think TB has the monopoly on stirring up 'more fighting and animosity'. Theresa May and Amber Rudd did a pretty good job of it at the Tory conference with their talk of 'foreign' workers and Farage is doing so with his threat to march on the day of the Supreme Court hearing, knowing full well what type of crowd that will attack (BNP, EDL and Britain First have apparently all said they will march with him). And let's not forget the Press's role in all this rabble-rousing, particularly the Express and Mail.